Youth FAQ - Collapse & Flood

[lookingaround]

Here is another FAQ question. This one was tough for us and could probably use some help. Please post improvement suggestions!

Thanks!

---
Will the cave collapse or flood?
Complete collapse of a cave is highly unlikely, but it could happen. The chances of a even a small collapse are remote and vary depending upon the type of cave. Many caves have been stable for millions of years. Other caves “growâ€

[erebus]

I would change the last sentence to:

You should also check the weather forecast and recent rainfall before entering any cave that is prone to flooding.

[Teresa]

Also add:

Thunderstorms may come up while you are in the cave. If you are in a wet cave, be aware of water levels, and if they appear to increase dramatically, prepare to exit the cave if possible. If you are caught in a cave during a flash flood, seek high ledges or chambers, and do not panic. Water which comes up so fast you can see it usually goes down equally rapidly. NEVER attempt to "swim for it" --more people have drowned in caves by panicking and being trapped under sumped passage than by holing up for several hours waiting for the water to fall. Carry an LED light, or candle and some quick energy candy for such possibilities.

[Cheryl Jones]

Theresa's addition is a good one if the FAQs are directed towards cavers. However, I'd understood they were directed towards the parents of youth and youth who will be on a guided trip (led by cavers). For example, in the FAQ about getting lost we don't give instructions about how to navigate in a cave or find a way out.

Lookingaround, remind us of who your audience is for the FAQs. Thanks!

Cheryl

[Cheryl Jones]

Some suggestions:

Lava tubes vary significantly and can also breakdown.

Instead:

Lava tubes vary significantly and can also break down.

Any cave can have loose boulders that can be knocked over by a careless explorer. Be careful!

Boulders are not necessarily knocked over (to me this means going from upright to prone) but are knocked loose. Which means then they roll or fall someplace else, and that may endanger the group. Perhaps instead:

Any cave can have unstable boulders that can be knocked loose by a careless explorer. Be careful!

Some caves have the potential to flood during times of high water or flash flood. Your guide should be aware of the flood risks in the cave that you are exploring. Additionally, you may wish to monitor the local weather conditions and precipitation history before going caving.

Perhaps instead:
Some cave passages can flood during times of high rainfall, flash flood conditions, or high water levels. Your guide should be aware of the flood risks in the cave that you are exploring. You should check the weather forecast and recent rainfall before the youth group enters any cave that is prone to flooding.

Hope this helps!

Cheryl

[Teresa]

Theresa's addition is a good one if the FAQs are directed towards cavers. However, I'd understood they were directed towards the parents of youth and youth who will be on a guided trip (led by cavers).

I respectfully disagree with Cheryl. The only young man who survived the 1993 Cliff Cave flooding/drownings was because he climbed up on a higher ledge, (where he was found) instead of 'following the leader' to his death. I suspect (don't know for sure) he did this of his own initiative.

In the best of all possible worlds, the leaders stay in control of the group, everyone stays safe and yada yada. But we need to give our charges the information to act independently to save their lives if they get separated from the group, the leaders get panicky, situations change quickly or so forth. Caving is a combination of teamwork and independent action-- just like the real world. We tell little kids to call 911 for help-- we expect them to use some discretion here, but kids need to know what do if there is no one around to tell them what to do in an emergency.

After all, it is the short people who are going to be the first to notice water rising rapidly-- not the 6 foot tall leaders .

[lookingaround]

Theresa's addition is a good one if the FAQs are directed towards cavers. However, I'd understood they were directed towards the parents of youth and youth who will be on a guided trip (led by cavers). For example, in the FAQ about getting lost we don't give instructions about how to navigate in a cave or find a way out.

Lookingaround, remind us of who your audience is for the FAQs. Thanks!

Cheryl

The intended audience is the parents/guardians of youth cavers, potential youth group leaders, and youth cavers.

Thanks everybody for the suggestions. We'll rework the answer next week. We are away from home this weekend -- hopefully we'll get into our first cave of 2006 on Monday!

[cob]

I respectfully disagree with Cheryl. The only young man who survived the 1993 Cliff Cave flooding/drownings was because he climbed up on a higher ledge, (where he was found) instead of 'following the leader' to his death. I suspect (don't know for sure) he did this of his own initiative.

Actually, there was no initiative involved, there were no ledges in that passage, it was only 2-3 ft high.... an eddy in the current pushed his head up into a ceiling pocket and he grabbed a protrusion of rock. That's all. He was lucky. The leaders (and the rest) were hit by a wall of water they could not fight ... and died. We were within 100' of him that 1st night and he could hear us but we couldn't hear him over the noise of the water.

In so far as the FAQ, I am in agreement with Cheryl (WOW!!! It can happen, put 'er there Cheryl!) It is intended for the parents and ergo has to be worded carefully (I can come up with no better way than she did) and can only add that flooding happens in some caves, and they (parents) are totally dependent on the guide.

tom

[Teresa]

I still disagree. Yes, it is the responsibility of the leaders parents to determine where and when the kids go, but if we aren't teaching the kids that they have to also be self-reliant, and aware of their environment, it is all futile IMO. Or we are just trying to get them to be good little sheep.

[lookingaround]

Thanks everybody for the feedback to this question.

We have split this question into two and attempted to re-write the flooding one using everybody's input.

As we mentioned earlier, the intended audience is parents/guardians. But, hopefully some of the youth cavers will read also.

Please post additional suggestions for improvement.


---
Will the cave collapse?
Complete collapse of a cave is highly unlikely, but it could happen. The chances of even a small collapse are remote and vary depending upon the type of cave. Many caves have been stable for millions of years. Other caves “growâ€