bearing arms in caves

[ek]

I've heard of people bringing guns into caves, but I've never personally known anyone who I know does this. My understanding--which may be incorrect--is that this practice (while still uncommon) is enormously more common down in TAG than up here in the northeast. Packing heat in a cave is unheard of up here. On the other hand, compared to TAG, caving is also pretty much unheard of up here.

I am particularly interested in knowing if anyone outside the United States carries while caving.

For those of you who do, or have, carried guns in caves, I am interested in why. Many of my fellow northeastern caves consider this practice to be absurd and unwarranted, but I am not convinced that this is universally true. For one, if you happened (for whatever reason) to be carrying a gun when you came to a cave, and then happened to want to enter the cave, it might be inadvisable to leave the gun at the entrance. Especially if it was a through-trip. As in life generally, I imagine that there are places to go caving where there is a high risk of violence from criminals, and perhaps also from wild animals.

To disclose possibly relevant personal details: I am not a gun owner myself, but I support the right to bear arms (though I'd prefer not to enter into a debate of that issue here on Cavechat, and I'm sure the moderators would prefer that too...OTOH I'd probably reply to PM's on the topic). I am interested in all aspects of what gear people bring into caves, and I find that my understanding of the reasons some people cave with firearms is terribly lacking. I have found that cavers tend to carry more guns than the general population, but again that might be related to the disproportionate lack of northeasterners in caving. In the northeast many cavers dismiss carrying in caves as the behavior of "rednecks." But this is a misconceived, damaging stereotype, and not an explanation at all. I feel that the Equipment Forum is the obviously correct place to discuss this--in additional to the essentials, we discuss many non-essential items for caving here, like photo gear.

I suspect that the poll will reflect that most people don't carry guns in caves...but if you do, please don't let that make you shy to discuss it. Most cavers don't scuba dive, aid climb, or lead girl scouts in caves either, but that doesn't mean that those practices are somehow bad.

I am also interested in what you carry. I am guessing that pistols and revolvers are the most common types, and that people do not enter caves with rifles, shotguns, submachine guns, etc. How do you choose what type of gun to carry? Specifically what models of firearms do you pack when caving, and specifically why do you choose them? How do you deal with water, mud, and dust?

Finally, I am interested in how you carry it. Does it go in your cave pack? In a holster? Are there any special, cave-specific safety precautions you take with guns? Are there any specific procedures or techniques that you use when vertical caving with firearms? How much ammunition do you carry, and why?

[Scott McCrea]

I have also seen people caving with bare arms.

But seriously, I have never personally carried in a cave. But I have caved with plenty of people that do. They mostly justify it by saying it's for the hike to the cave and trouble from locals/meth heads around the entrance.

Flittermouse Grotto lore tells the storyof how we met long-time member Earl. We found him in a wet, stream cave, past the "sewer pipe", in clean, dry white coveralls and carrying a shotgun. We looked at him, scratched our heads wondering why he was carrying a shotgun. He looked at us, scratched his head wondering why we were not carrying a shotgun. We still don't know how he got thru the sewer pipe without getting wet.

[Phil Winkler]

Ek,

I once caved with a well known Birmingham caver who carried a pistol and was ready to take it into the cave when I objected. I was a professional military person, too. Weapons make me nervous in spite of me being an expert marksman.

This was in the early 80s and was routine for him. We were in Jackson Co. Alabama. Hmmm..maybe it was shortly after the film Deliverance came out and the weapon was to cover our backsides!

[Anonymous_Coward]

I know people that after running into bears and Mtn. lions in caves, will not ridgewalk without carrying. I have run into a bear myself while checking out a cave, but so far bear spray is the only arsenal I carry.

We have one friend we always give a hard time for carrying so many weapons around wherever he goes. One time we went caving in the Huachuca Mtns in extreme southern AZ where you have to go through a Border Patrol checkpoint to get back home. (even though it's still in our country don't get me started......) Anyway, not wanting any hassles from the feds, our friend left the entire arsenal at our house before going down. While camping that night, a family of drunk rednecks showed up where we were and started a genuine drunken shootout. There were bullets flying and my friend was pretty upset to be unarmed. Needless to say, we got the hell out of there.

Another time, my wife and I were being shown around TN's Grassy Cove Saltpeter Cave by Kevin Climer, a sort of shady character who seemed to be living in the cave at the time. At any rate, he had a raging fire and six tiki torches in there. Kevin did not have a gun that I know of, although he did cave with a huge Crocodile Dundee knife on his belt. After a very weird day in the cave (a story in itself), we were back at the torches and looking for an excuse to leave. Kevin kept trying to find ways to get us to stay longer until two dudes showed up in the cave with rifles. At that point he was more concerned with them and we were able to make our escape.

How's that for a TAG gun story?

[graveleye]

I carry in one cave and only one. The reason I do is because there have been problems with the locals before and it is isolated, yet in a semi-populated area. This means that being there alone, a mal-intentioned person could do pretty much what they want and no one would know. Most of the time it is just my wife and myself and it get's very spooky when we're alone up there. My wife might be able to scream louder than me, but if something happens to me, she would be on her own with no protection. I can't have that.

When I am on our property, I carry my 9mm on my hip. Going into the cave it goes in my backpack. It's a dry cave and very easy so no real chance of damaging it. Once back on the surface it's back on my hip down to the truck.

If I am there with a group, I don't bother carrying it. I feel safer in numbers. If it is just the wife and myself, I'm armed and so is she. (we're both licensed carriers)

This is the ONLY cave I carry in. Personally, I wouldn't dream of carrying a firearm into any other cave, if for no other reason than the fact that it is a lot of extra weight, bulky, and could be damaged by water, mud and whatnot.

Personally, I would consider it foolish to carry a firearm into a cave unless you have a GOOD reason to believe you might need it. In my particular case, in my particular cave, I have a reason. Nowhere else do I feel compelled to do so.

[shibumi]

I see we got you curious again, Eliah ;)

As a percentage of my trips, I've carried a gun on a vanishingly small number of trips. Maybe .1% of the time.
Of course, that's out of 3000-4000 trips :)

I've never felt the need to have a weapon IN the cave, it's the trip to and from the cave that is the issue. Then,
because I take my ownership and control of firearms very seriously, leaving an unsecured weapon outside
is unacceptable to me.

Sometimes it's happened when I've found a cave while ridgewalking, usually it's because I'm hiking more
than a few hundred feet to a cave.

So, what I carry depends on how much effort I'm making to get to the cave, if I'm ridgewalking or out
for a pleasant hike, I usually have my regular carry weapon (Glock 20 10mm, or Glock 29 10mm). If it's the death
march uphill both ways I have my backup weapon (Kel-Tec 32acp). If I have a cave pack with me the weapon
goes in a plastic bag unloaded in the pack. I doubt anyone would consider me a redneck, and I also think that
the stereotype says a lot about the person applying the stereotype, and not in a good way.

As to the folks out there reading who are simply horrified at the thought, I have this to say: I absolutely will not
debate the issue. I consider my personal defense to be my inalienable right and it doesn't matter to me whether
that right is state sanctioned or not. I hold this belief as deeply as any I hold, so it is not a matter up for debate,
and I really don't care what anyone else thinks about it.
BTW, I'm always armed whether I have a gun or not ;)

[Anonymous_Coward]

BTW, I'm always armed whether I have a gun or not ;)

He's not kidding. Shibumi can kill people with credit cards and lampshades and stuff. Just read the book!

[wendy]

I have never carried a gun into a cave, but I have been caving once with someone who did. He is law enforcement and I think he did it out of habit more than anything else. I could see if I was hiking to a cave to have it for protection, but then I would have to bring it in, cuz I'm not stashing my gun outside while I cave. But I've never hiked so far or with so few folks that I felt unsafe.

[tncaver]

As of yet, in my almost 50 years of caving in TAG, I've never carried a firearm ridge walking or caving.
I've met a few REDS and seen evidence of meth labs but never had a life threatening experience, although
I have had a few bullets whiz by my head from unknown sources, even when I had permission to be on property.

Someday, I may see the need to carry a weapon caving/ridge walking. I did take one camping one time due to
the number of large cats and coyotes in the area. But it was the two legged varmits that made me actually
load it and carry it down the road before the varmits left.

I truely hope that guns never become standard equipment for cavers anywhere in the USA. Although I was in
the military and have shot many weapons, I do not feel comfortable around them in civilian life. I do own weapons
and keep one loaded in the house. But weapons, permit or not, have no place in most caving situations. I hope
that I can always say that.

[tncaver]

Another firearms tale: I arrived home one night after a day of caving and while cleaning out my truck, found
a pistol under the front passenger seat. Apparently my passenger left it there. I was not happy about that since
I could have been arrested if a cop searched my vehicle for any reason and found a loaded pistol under the
front seat. I returned the weapon the following weekend with instructions NOT to bring it again.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I am particularly interested in knowing if anyone outside the United States carries while caving.

Nope I don't, and I've never known anyone in Australia who has, in fact I don't think they even considered it, most Australians don't own a gun and if they do the by law (with a few exceptions) it's a rifle or shotgun not the sort of thing you'd take into a cave.
Pretty much for me there's no reason to carry outside a cave and there's even less once you enter the cave.

[wyandottecaver]

I did once.
We were called out in the middle of the night by a cave owner who at the time believed her dog had run into her cave to escape a lightning storm. The cave has a low entrance room, small pit, and then mostly crawling and stooping for several thousand feet. Not wanting to end up face to face with a dog of unknown temperment and possibly injured badly enough to be in need of "mercy", without some recourse besides a flat rock... a .22 magnum revolver went caving that night. Oddly, we did find a long-dead dog down there but the dog in question returned from the neighbors house while we were in-cave

[StevenSmith]

I am a martial arts student and teacher. I have not taught in about a year because of a knee injury I suffered at the hands of an overzealous black belt. I started martial arts training years ago because I was assaulted, robbed and put in the trunk of a car by two rednecks and a former air force mechanic working for McDonald Douglas Inc. Stupidity is not limited to inbred hillbillies. I was out on the river by myself and stumbled across their drunken mischief.

Both my wife and I have concealed firearms licenses. We both carry pistols and are trained to use them. I am also trained in hostage situations, air marshal techniques, tactical shooting, disarms etc.

I carry a CZ Rami 15 round mag. My wife prefers a composite Walther. I never go hiking or ridge walking without a firearm. I'm not so worried about a face to face confrontation with a person but being ambushed by someone or a large animal. I actually had to kill a large deer in self defense one time when I startled it. It ran at me to attack me. I shot it to keep from being trampled.

I have never carried a firearm into a cave for fear that I would damage the firearm somehow. I also do not feel that it is a smart thing to leave the firearm outside the cave entrance. I once hid a broken flashlight near the entrance to a cave so I wouldn't have to carry around the extra weight. It was discovered and missing when I came back out hours later.

The fact that a large carnivorous animal could be inside the cave does concern me. I went into Adams Cave with a 3 person group last year. We were only in for about 1.5 hours. When we came out, a coyote was trying to come inside or was at least walking around the entrance. He was probably hesitant to enter because of our scent.

I was out ridge walking on New Years Day. I was armed. I spooked a very large wolf while I was exploring a sinkhole near Ketchum's Cave in Georgia. The sheer size of that thing scared the bejeezus out of me. It ran in the opposite direction but none-the-less It was there.

I'm not going to give an opinion on caving armed but I will say that I will always carry when I'm ridge walking or I have an excuse to wear a jacket.

I'm not sure of the best way to protect a firearm from mud, water etc but if you buy the right kind of firearm mud or water will not be an issue. Glocks, S&W Sigma, CZ, Keltec or other poly framed firearms should not be damaged by a little water or mud. As a matter of fact, Tests have been done on Glocks where they were thrown in the mud, ran over with military vehicles for months on end. They were then taken out, rinsed off and fired perfectly.

I guess a ziploc bag with a silica gel pack would do the job of keeping your firearm safe. The silica will not keep the moisture out but it will keep the oxygen out. That's what you really have to worry about. Silica packs can be "Recharged" by putting them in the oven for a few minutes. Not microwave but use a conventional oven instead.

I woudn't risk taking any of the following into a muddy cave. Revolver, anything with aluminum parts, wooden parts, scopes, lasers, hologram sights, blackpowder, chrome, nickel plated, etc. I've forgotten to wash the acidic mud off my aluminum black diamond carabiners after a caving trip. The acid quickly removed the pretty finish from the carabiners leaving a dull mottled surface. That did not happen to my stainless rack.

[batrotter]

Some of the places that I cave and ridgewalk are well known to have meth labs. In fact, Indiana has the highest numbers of meth labs in the country. Not sure why though. One of my caving partners is always armed and frequently all of us are armed. We all have concealed carry permits.

[Squirrel Girl]

Gee, I always thought cavers were less likely to have guns EXCEPT in TAG (a few in the west) and FL cave divers where everyone is a gun nut (a term I use semi-affectionately).

The only time I ever knew of a gun on my trip into a cave was in Mexico. We were guided to a new cave (nice one about 1 km long) by the locals. It was "Children's Day" and about 15 of them (mostly adults but some kids) too us down to the entrance at the bottom of the canyon by the river. There were inter-tribal rivalries or inter-clan rivalries, or something we never fully understood, and one of the guys cam armed with a rifle. He took it into the cave, and one of our team who is nervous around guns tried to convince the guy that IN THE CAVE he didn't need the rifle and that ricocheting bullets might be a bad thing!

Later in that same area, while camped on the river, in the night, some locals were checkin' us out. I slept through this. Then they moved across the river and shown some wan flashlights at us. One of our guys shone a dive light back toward them. Then a gun went off! CRAP! So we turned all our lights off and ran up the side canyon in the new moon and in the dark. We went about 2 km, then "camped" which meant trying to sleep in on the rocks--no fun. We went back in the morning, and it appears that they hadn't messed with our stuff. After talking with locals and between ourselves, it seems that they were drunk hunters. One guy got frisky and his buddies convinced him that maybe if we had better flashlights, maybe we had better firepower?