Helmet Weight

[hunter]

ek,
I spent a while staring at the lightest climbing helmets and thinking it over. I've seen previous generations of the meteor while out climbing and my girlfriend climbed with one for a few years. It broke into pieces when she had it clipped to her pack and dropped the pack to hard. I decided I beat my caving helmet up to much for a single use helmet like this to work. I'll weigh the HB composite helmet alone the next chance I get and see how it compares. It's definitely much lighter than the petzl.

Fortuitously the edge of my HB is exactly the right size for the Sten so I was able to mount it directly to the lip of the helmet instead of putting on a bracket. This definitely saved me some weight.
I also thought hard about the battery location but my experiences with extra cables have always been bad. They just get in the way either crawling or messing around on rope. Your definitely right though that moving the battery is the best way to save weight.

James

P.S. I agree with the need for a helmet. In totally horizontal caves I can see getting away without it (although I still hit my head a fair bit). In really vertical stuff the rock fall is just to scary for me to consider no helmet. The sound of a rock exploding after a 50M fall is just to scary!

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I also thought hard about the battery location but my experiences with extra cables have always been bad. They just get in the way either crawling or messing around on rope. Your definitely right though that moving the battery is the best way to save weight.

I think a few headlamp manufacturers cite as a feature that having the battery pack on the back balances out the headlamp avoiding neck strain so by moving the battery pack off the helmet you might be making the helmet lighter but you may not be helping the neck strain or headache issues. IMO in tight caves (just about all we've got) I wouldn't consider a waist mounted battery pack, battery packs are getting smaller and lighter and more powerful so I don't really see much point in putting batteries on a waist belt (unless it cold enough they need keeping warm to work).

Re helmets:
To repeat the common saying:

"How much you spend on a helmet really says something about the value of what you put inside it"

to the extent that you buy a helmet that is safe and suitable for caving use.

I agree with what hunter said I think a caving helmet should have a durable (probably hard plastic) shell, foam or whatever could be used inside but I think the bumps and knocks caving helmets routinely get will ruin many of the light weight helmets.

[ek]

This is certainly not a practice that I would advocate for (except if the only other alternatives in consideration are such as no helmet at all), but plenty of beginning cavers cave in bicycle helmets. I'm sure plenty of people on this forum have. Have they broken in half or otherwise fallen apart?

If not, then I don't think this is such a big issue with the lightweight climbing helmets either.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

This is certainly not a practice that I would advocate for (except if the only other alternatives in consideration are such as no helmet at all), but plenty of beginning cavers cave in bicycle helmets. I'm sure plenty of people on this forum have. Have they broken in half or otherwise fallen apart?

If not, then I don't think this is such a big issue with the lightweight climbing helmets either.

How long have these people used bicycle helmets for? I imagine it's a very short term thing until they get a proper helmet or decide they don't like caving.

I think it's quite likely they might break the first time you stand up hard (into the roof) or run into something hard with your head, I've seen bike helmets crack and break with relatively minor impacts, like the person didn't get a headache or anything, in fact one of my bicycle helmets did it. That sort of helmet IMO is only meant to protect from a single impact (small or large) and then be discarded.

Apart from hardish impacts I think the continual knocks and scrapes of caving would pretty quickly exact a toll on that sort of helmet anyway. I reckon they'd work for climbing but not for caving.

Personally I wouldn't expect that sort of helmet to last more than a year and I'd guess it would actually last less than that....

PS: my bike helmet cracked through the middle and I couldn't think of a crash where I hit my head so it can't have been all that bad (no I didn't suffer memory loss as a result of the crash )

[hunter]

I've seen a number of beginners use bicycle helmets in horizontal caves and I don't really have a problem with it (although I now have access to club gear so I recommend that first). A bike helmet does protect from accidentally hitting your head on the roof. I would never recommend this in a vertical cave due to the different dynamics of a falling rock.

The manufacturers for foam climbing helmets do say that once they are cracked you need a new one (i.e. single serious impact). I think these are fine for almost any single day climbing or caving although they probably won't last as long. My original helmet is 15 years old and fine aside from being scraped. Most of the climbers I know who have foam helmets have replaced them at least once after accidental breakage.

What I was trying to say was that in my case I don't want a helmet that can break easily. Partly I don't like the cost of replacing it but mostly I do a number of multiweek trips and don't want to carry a spare. I'm trying to minimize weight because I get a headache on really long days (18+ hours) but it's not such an issue that I think it's worth extreme measures.

James

[cavehopper]

I have had that same problem in the past. My blue water petzl setup doesn't cause headaches and I believe that is do to the balance. If you have weight forward it will certainly stress your neck and a stressed neck will always cause a headache. I've caved for years and I have never thought it necessary to have three lights on my helmet. Two lights are all you can possibly need at one time diffused light so you can walk without following your spot which will also give you a headache and when you want to see that distant ceiling you have your spot. Nothing is perfect.

[Ralph E. Powers]

I've seen a number of beginners use bicycle helmets in horizontal caves and I don't really have a problem with it (although I now have access to club gear so I recommend that first). A bike helmet does protect from accidentally hitting your head on the roof. I would never recommend this in a vertical cave due to the different dynamics of a falling rock.

The manufacturers for foam climbing helmets do say that once they are cracked you need a new one (i.e. single serious impact). I think these are fine for almost any single day climbing or caving although they probably won't last as long. My original helmet is 15 years old and fine aside from being scraped. Most of the climbers I know who have foam helmets have replaced them at least once after accidental breakage.

What I was trying to say was that in my case I don't want a helmet that can break easily. Partly I don't like the cost of replacing it but mostly I do a number of multiweek trips and don't want to carry a spare. I'm trying to minimize weight because I get a headache on really long days (18+ hours) but it's not such an issue that I think it's worth extreme measures.

James

While I don't have a problem with beginners bringing their bike helmets, better crunched styrofoam than crunched skulls, I'd prefer not. I own several helmets with lights for just that reason. But if for some reason they're not available then better a bike helmet than nothing. But I usually suggest they look into purchasing one or at least getting a UIAA approved construction helmet and add a chin strap if they are wanting to go out caving more often.

[incavenow]

2 lbs, 1oz or roughly 900 grams on my kitchen scales. I wear a petzel ROC with a stenlight, back mounted lithum battery. A Fenix P3D is zip tied on one side with a cheapie, 1xAA led on the other side for map reading/crawls. This rig doesn't seem heavy to me and I definitely enjoy caving with it compared to some the other light systems I've moved thru over the years.
There is a few more stickers on it now than what is shown.

[Bob Thrun]

I

The manufacturers for foam climbing helmets do say that once they are cracked you need a new one (i.e. single serious impact).

I have looked at helmets at outdoor recreation stores and caving suppliers. I have not seen a foam helmet. There are no helmets specifically designed as caving helmets. All the climbing helmets are similar. They have a plastic shell with a plastic suspension inside. In the event of a side impact, there is the rock, two layers of hard plastic, and the wearer's skull. There is no energy absorption mechanism. Climbing helmets, like construction hardhats, are designed to protect against small falling objects. Bicycle helmets have foam that will absorb energy in the event of a side impact, but they have little protection against falling objects. I would like to get a new helmet with some foam that will cusion side impacts.

[NZcaver]

I have looked at helmets at outdoor recreation stores and caving suppliers. I have not seen a foam helmet. There are no helmets specifically designed as caving helmets.

FYI, from the Petzl website

SPELIOS
Caving helmet with hybrid lighting : halogen / 14 LED

Complete caving solution
- durable, lightweight and ventilated helmet,
- electric lighting is lightweight and easy to use, - waterproof down to -5 meters,

Shell made of injection-molded polycarbonate (for scratch and impact resistance), liner made of expanded polypropylene foam (for shock absorption).



Without the headlamp, the same helmet is called the Elios. These have been on the market for several years, and quite a few cavers on the forum use one (but not me personally).

[ek]

Helmets with foam offer shock absorption, but so do the other kinds of climbing helmets.

Deformation of the plastic shell of a climbing helmet with traditional webbing suspension absorbs energy.

Crushing of an old fiberglass helmet absorbs energy. I don't remember where, but I seem to recall figures on how actually fiberglass helmets transmit less energy to the wearer than any of the modern styles in a single serious blunt impact. Can anybody confirm or deny this?

(Weight, fragility, and vulnerability to chemical damage are good reason to eschew fiberglass and prefer plastic/webbing, plastic/foam, or thin shell/foam helmets, however.)

[Bob Thrun]

In a top impact, the deformation or breaking of the helmet's shell might absorb energy. In the case of a side impact with most climbing helmets, the suspension headband and shell are simply pushed against the wearer's skull with no energy absorption. Compare the side impact protection of bicyle and climbing helmets.

[Marbry]

One of the key points to consider is not just how much weight is on the helmet, but how it is distributed. Having it balanced is important to reduce neck strain, unbalanced weight will put a continuous strain on your neck as it works to fight that. I find that it seems to work best to have the weight a little towards the back since we spend so much time looking down.

It may be more important to lighten the helmet if you're sketching for instance. Having your neck craned over all day can certainly make it sore, but it's usually my back that starts to get stove up first from being hunched over the book.

I think having 3 sources of readily available light on your helmet is a very good idea. With the tiny lights available today that have both decent burn time and light output it's much more practical.

[hunter]

My Petzl/Duo setup has good balance. If I am walking and looking forward I can have the headband loose and it won't move. The main issue is that I don't do all that much simple walking while caving. When I'm crawling, sketching, or whatever I have to tighten the headband to keep the helmet from sliding around. By using a lighter rig I don't need the helmet to be as tight. Sketching is usually not as big an issue for me. If I'm not below a drop or something I sometimes just take my helmet off while I draw. My only real issue is that I have to keep switching to dim because looking at a white piece of paper tends to be blinding with a higher setting.

Bob, I don't know where you look at helmets but things have changed in the last couple of years. The helmet that NZ posted has a foam lining very similar to the older hardshell biking helmets, not a traditional webbing suspension system. A number of manufacturers have gone this route and I see them at REI all the time. Your comments about side impact with a webbing suspension are mostly correct although I saw a guy pull a hundred or so pound rock onto his head while lying on his back surveying. The helmet took a good chunk of the force. It was an older helmet that seemed stiffer to me but it employed the traditional webbing suspension system.

James

[Bob Thrun]

Bob, I don't know where you look at helmets but things have changed in the last couple of years. The helmet that NZ posted has a foam lining very similar to the older hardshell biking helmets, not a traditional webbing suspension system. A number of manufacturers have gone this route and I see them at REI all the time.
James

It has been a few years since I did a thorough search of climbing helmets. I based my search on a climbing magazine's gear guide issue. I have looked at helmets when I go to the local REI store. All the models in stock were the shell and suspension style. Would you give a few names of manufacturers and models?

I still use a Bell Toptex Malibu helmet. Malibu is a beach. Unfortunately, the shell is fiberglass-polyester, which gives the most strength per dollar, not the most strength per weight. Bell does not make that or a similar anymore. Another helmet from the same era was by Mountain Safety Research. It had foam blocks around the periphery. For top impact, the energy absorption was by the bending of small wire clips that were simply overrated.

I do not have any balance problems with a light the front with either the Malibu or Joe Brown helmets. I had a problem with balance whem I used a construction hardhat. The problem with construction hardhats is that they ride too high. Look at the workers when you pass by a construction site. There have been various construction hardhat standards over the years. All concern top impact by a small sharp object. The manufacturers try to barely meet the standard at the lowest cost.