Cavechat.org

Hi all,
I was wondering what kind of gear TAG cavers are wearing into wet multi by drop caves? I currently where Army Navy poly-prose under a meander crawl suits and wool socks in my jungle boots. I still manage to get cold as the poly-prose still hold water just not as much as cotton, especially when I'm waiting for others to climb out of pits . I've been thinking about getting neoprene gloves and Sock's and switching my poly-pros for 3mm wetsuit for the really wet caves. I'd like to get some input from cavers that do this type of caving about how they deal with it.
Thanks

Heh. Cave in the Rockies for a season, then Tag'll seem warm...

Light polypropylene underwear is definitely a good start, and if you can keep the falling water off you with a waterproof over, that should do it I'd think. Ditch the wool socks; try pile (fleece) socks and wring them out when you can (otherwise just drain them by sitting down and elevating/tipping your feet). Throw a silk cap or neck-gaiter into your pack, and pull it on/off as the mood suits. And the old standby - cave in a small group, and keep moving...

ian mckenzie wrote:Heh. Cave in the Rockies for a season, then Tag'll seem warm...

Light polypropylene underwear is definitely a good start, and if you can keep the falling water off you with a waterproof over, that should do it I'd think. Ditch the wool socks; try pile (fleece) socks and wring them out when you can (otherwise just drain them by sitting down and elevating/tipping your feet). Throw a silk cap or neck-gaiter into your pack, and pull it on/off as the mood suits. And the old standby - cave in a small group, and keep moving...

I would have to disagree with the wool socks. I've used them for years and have always been comfortable with them and even when they're wet they still retain warmth. Wool with polypro blend is a good bet as well.
Sealskins socks are good (if you can afford them... I can't ). I do agree with the lightweight polypro unders, especially wearing the top half which is most important anyway since that is your core body heat you'd have to conserve. Agree again on the silk hat or a simple fleece baklava will help help the rest of you toasty as you lose a lot of body heat through the top of your head. Not to mention having a large black garbage bag lining your helmet will maintain the heat and doubly serves as a heat-tent should you start experiencing first stage hypothermia... something that a lot of people take for granted.
Neoprene fishing gloves do help keep your hands warm, but they do wear out quickly and small pieces of them can be left behind in the cave as you make your way through, not good for the biota in the cave. Something to think about.

ian mckenzie wrote:Heh. Cave in the Rockies for a season, then Tag'll seem warm...

Light polypropylene underwear is definitely a good start, and if you can keep the falling water off you with a waterproof over, that should do it I'd think. Ditch the wool socks; try pile (fleece) socks and wring them out when you can (otherwise just drain them by sitting down and elevating/tipping your feet). Throw a silk cap or neck-gaiter into your pack, and pull it on/off as the mood suits. And the old standby - cave in a small group, and keep moving...

I have a fabric Meander crawl suit, would a PVC suit make a large difference?

CaverCraig wrote:

ian mckenzie wrote:Heh. Cave in the Rockies for a season, then Tag'll seem warm...

Light polypropylene underwear is definitely a good start, and if you can keep the falling water off you with a waterproof over, that should do it I'd think. Ditch the wool socks; try pile (fleece) socks and wring them out when you can (otherwise just drain them by sitting down and elevating/tipping your feet). Throw a silk cap or neck-gaiter into your pack, and pull it on/off as the mood suits. And the old standby - cave in a small group, and keep moving...

I have a fabric Meander crawl suit, would a PVC suit make a large difference?

Those who explored The Main Drain (-1230 feet) in Utah (elevation +9000 feet) largely used the yellow PVC suits and/or other water-repellent/resistant coveralls. I was not privileged to be among them but if I was I'd had my water resistant suit (not water proof) which would've allowed me to get as far as the "There Had To Be A Low Spot" which is a 2 foot crawl nearly filled with water. But that is deep enough.

If you're in waterfalls it may help provided you've a way to keep the water from entering inside the suit, most TAG cavers tell me that they use wetsuits in situations like these. It doesn't keep them dry but doesn't allow the water to cool long enough to rob the body of life sustaining heat... provided you're constantly moving and pumping blood through the extremities and generating (internal) body heat to keep the blood/heart/core warm.

CaverCraig wrote:Hi all,
I was wondering what kind of gear TAG cavers are wearing into wet multi by drop caves? I currently where Army Navy poly-prose under a meander crawl suits and wool socks in my jungle boots. I still manage to get cold as the poly-prose still hold water just not as much as cotton, especially when I'm waiting for others to climb out of pits . I've been thinking about getting neoprene gloves and Sock's and switching my poly-pros for 3mm wetsuit for the really wet caves. I'd like to get some input from cavers that do this type of caving about how they deal with it.
Thanks

Personally I don't find too much difference in wool/poly blend socks and neoprene socks. I like polypro covered by a wetsuit. (I ususally wear a shorty because long legs are restrictive to me). Covering up with a windbreaker/rain jacket (or garbage bag) while waiting at climbs helps because it cuts the wind created by the waterfall.

One thing to keep in mind. The wetsuit supposedly works by causing the water that gets in to heat up. When you are climbing in a waterfall unless you have a barrier over the wetsuit the water inside that your body has warmed will be constantly washing out and cold water will be washing in.

I have a personal rule (didn't always but do now because of a few bad experiences). I never go to a wet multi-drop with more than 6 cavers - I actually perfer holding it down to 4 if possible. The longer the drops the less people I will tolerate on the trip.

I can only speak for myself, I have done very few wet multi-drops but I have done LOTS of very wet caving so my experiance may or may not be applicable.

pvc vs fabric makes a incredibly huge difference. I once forgot some clothes and caved a very wet muddy horizontal cave in a pvc oversuit, t shirt, shorts, and kneepads. I wouldn't even think about that in fabric. also, many fabric coveralls have a moisture resistant coating inside that flakes off the first time they see a dryer, never put treated coveralls in a dryer.

I prefer to use a thin layer of polypro that will dry quickly from body heat, covered either by a fleece undersuit (I use a petzl) or heavy polypro covered by an oversuit of pvc or fabric depending. This lets me unzip layers as needed to manage temperature.

Unless I am doing a lot of swimming or very wet surveying wetsuits seem too restrictive, too hot, and create challenges to releiving yourself. They also seem colder if you get out of the water and then stop moving. I have used a farmer john bottom, fleece top, and oversuit with good results. Thin diveskins however, can also be quite helpful when your are getting wet but still doing a lot of moving.

Sealskin gloves and socks are very good (I like them a lot, especially the socks) but they don't take much abuse so protect them. I wear fabric gloves over my sealskin gloves. neoprene booties are ok, neoprene gloves (wallmart style) suck. they are too bulky, too hard to get back on, too cold. true dive gloves may be better. synthetic and/or wool socks are fine and work well out of water, but as long as your actually in the water they wont do much for you.

a thin fleece beanie cap under your helmet and a trash bag stuffed up in the top works wonders.

Always always carry a dry polypro top (even a thin one but med weight is best) in a waterproof bag in your pack. If you get really cold, or have to stay longer than expected, being able to put on a dry top next to your skin is a gift from god.

Also, if you get cold...eat. when you get tired...eat...when you stop moving....eat.

wyandottecaver wrote:I can only speak for myself, I have done very few wet multi-drops but I have done LOTS of very wet caving so my experiance may or may not be applicable.

pvc vs fabric makes a incredibly huge difference. I once forgot some clothes and caved a very wet muddy horizontal cave in a pvc oversuit, t shirt, shorts, and kneepads. I wouldn't even think about that in fabric. also, many fabric coveralls have a moisture resistant coating inside that flakes off the first time they see a dryer, never put treated coveralls in a dryer.

I prefer to use a thin layer of polypro that will dry quickly from body heat, covered either by a fleece undersuit (I use a petzl) or heavy polypro covered by an oversuit of pvc or fabric depending. This lets me unzip layers as needed to manage temperature.

Unless I am doing a lot of swimming or very wet surveying wetsuits seem too restrictive, too hot, and create challenges to releiving yourself. They also seem colder if you get out of the water and then stop moving. I have used a farmer john bottom, fleece top, and oversuit with good results. Thin diveskins however, can also be quite helpful when your are getting wet but still doing a lot of moving.

Sealskin gloves and socks are very good (I like them a lot, especially the socks) but they don't take much abuse so protect them. I wear fabric gloves over my sealskin gloves. neoprene booties are ok, neoprene gloves (wallmart style) suck. they are too bulky, too hard to get back on, too cold. true dive gloves may be better. synthetic and/or wool socks are fine and work well out of water, but as long as your actually in the water they wont do much for you.

a thin fleece beanie cap under your helmet and a trash bag stuffed up in the top works wonders.

Always always carry a dry polypro top (even a thin one but med weight is best) in a waterproof bag in your pack. If you get really cold, or have to stay longer than expected, being able to put on a dry top next to your skin is a gift from god.

Also, if you get cold...eat. when you get tired...eat...when you stop moving....eat.

Yeah, I thick a PVC suit, fleece Beanie and seal skin will make all the world of difference. I may even look into getting a one piece fleece cave under suit. Thanks for your post

I am a skinny guy and am one who always tends to get cold. I've found that for me a thin 2mm shorty wetsuit made for watersports windsurfing/water skiing or other watersports (not a diving suit) works wonders. These seem to work better to me than a dive suit. Maybe because they are made for watersports where you are generally wet but not submerged? Just my best guess. . . . They do have excellent freedom of movement that surpasses full diving suits.

Cheap ones can be had from sierra trading post. Last one I bought cost about $40.

This one is very similar to the one I have and is about the same price: http://www.sierratradingpost.com/Product.aspx?baseno=24486&cdf=TopSeller

I actually ordered this one last year but it was sized too small and I had to order another. BY that time, the size I wanted was sold out. I ended up with essentially the same one but with a rear zipper (actually more comfortable that way, especially when crawling).

I would suggest ordering one at least one size bigger than the size chart if not two sizes. With them almost sold out and the excellent return policy sierra has, order two you think might fit and plan to return the other.

YuccaPatrol wrote:I am a skinny guy and am one who always tends to get cold. I've found that for me a thin 2mm shorty wetsuit made for watersports windsurfing/water skiing or other watersports (not a diving suit) works wonders. These seem to work better to me than a dive suit. Maybe because they are made for watersports where you are generally wet but not submerged? Just my best guess. . . . They do have excellent freedom of movement that surpasses full diving suits.

Cheap ones can be had from sierra trading post. Last one I bought cost about $40.

This one is very similar to the one I have and is about the same price: http://www.sierratradingpost.com/Product.aspx?baseno=24486&cdf=TopSeller

I actually ordered this one last year but it was sized too small and I had to order another. BY that time, the size I wanted was sold out. I ended up with essentially the same one but with a rear zipper (actually more comfortable that way, especially when crawling).

I would suggest ordering one at least one size bigger than the size chart if not two sizes. With them almost sold out and the excellent return policy sierra has, order two you think might fit and plan to return the other.

What are you wearing over your suit and on your feet? I have a really thin Henderson top to a two piece wet suit that is missing the bottom part. I may just cut the long selves off and use it as a shorty.

Thanks

I have a fabric Meander crawl suit, would a PVC suit make a large difference?

Two things I haven't seen mentioned...

PVC does not breath at all so for me at least I will be soaked with sweat when I'm moving a lot. This means I only use PVC when I really need to. Usually in situations where I will get wet no matter what.

I've also seen several people cave with a balaclava in really cold caves. These are warm and fit pretty well under a helmet.

James

I generally wear my standard poly-pro's under the wetsut and then wear a fleece sweater and the mostly nylon fatigues for pants. I wear either neoprene or fleece socks or standard synthetic hiking socks like Thor-lo's under my Joop boots. . . .

I do tend to wear more clothing than others in my group, but if I don't lose heat from being cold, I have more energy later in the day. Worth it for me.

I agree with Ian Mckenzie. For wet multipitch TAG caves I would suggest swimming trunks or a bikini.

robcountess wrote:I agree with Ian Mckenzie. For wet multipitch TAG caves I would suggest swimming trunks or a bikini.

DO I wear the bikini under or over my poly-pro long underwear and wetsuit?

In most TAG multi-drops I just wear polypros with shorts. Sometimes even just a synthetic T-shirt. If I'm rappelling in waterfalls but only have to deal w/knee or waist deep water, I might go to PVC, but only if the waterfalls are really pounding. If it's totally all-out swimming and waterfalls, I'll go to a shorty wetsuit. But the key to staying warm is to move!