helmets for scouts

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Postby Teresa » Dec 6, 2007 8:46 am

Thank you very much for the compliment, NZ!
:-)

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Postby ek » Dec 7, 2007 12:01 pm

Teresa wrote:So why do you all insist on recommending CLIMBING helmets for caving, when one is not climbing anything more crazy than the side of a hill (albeit underground). Incidentally, mining helmets don't have to be retrofitted. They come with lamp brackets of various kinds. Many CLIMBING helmets have to be retrofitted with those headlamp clips to accommodate a light.

Well, I haven't been recommending climbing helmets, actually.
ek wrote:I don't agree with the pervasive notion that a helmet not suitable for vertical caving can be suitable for horizontal caving.

ek wrote:If you have a helmet that is not UIAA-certified for climbing but which you believe is adequate (or superior) for vertical caving, great. But I think that all the basic dangers to your head that are present in vertical caving are also present in horizontal caving.

Though I have suggested that climbing helmets are suitable head protection, and that there may be *other* reasons to wear them:
ek wrote:Finally, there may be other reasons (besides safety in horizontal caving) to purchase UIAA-certified helmets. Does your scout group do exclusively horizontal caving? If so, is it guaranteed to stay that way. Do you do any rock or ice climbing or other such activities? It saves money to be able to reuse things for more than one activity.

This sounds like I am saying that UIAA-certification for climbing is necessary for vertical caving. In fact, I don't know about that--I was just pointing out that *if* you believe that, and might go vertical caving, then you should consider getting UIAA-certified helmets. Furthermore, whether or not you believe that, if you're going climbing, it makes sense to have a climbing helmet, which is likely also to be satisfactory for caving.

I am not wedded to the notion that climbing helmets are needed for caving. My claim is that to be satisfactory for horizontal caving, a helmet should also be satisfactory for vertical caving.
Teresa wrote:I think I will found an organization called Helmets for Life. We can just wear helmets from the cradle to the grave. Think of the money it will save on hairstyling!

But you're not advocating *not* using helmets for caving, so where are you going with this? If you really think caving is like hiking, and you don't wear a helmet while hiking, why do you wear one while caving? There must be some reason, right?

I don't wear a helmet when I am hiking or walking down the street because the benefits of additional head protection are outweighed by the hassle of wearing a helmet. You could say that the benefits of a kid wearing a better helmet are outweighed by the hassle of his/her adult caretakers finding and buying a better helmet, but that argument just doesn't seem to carry the same kind of weight. I would say that there *is* additional safety to be had from wearing a helmet in most of the situations you cite, but that since the risk is so low, it is worthwhile not to wear one.

Suppose you *were* wearing an under-the-vehicle helmet. You would want it to be good enough that it would substantially mitigate the harm and pain of sitting up into the vehicle above, right?

I think the only reason figure skaters don't wear helmets is that nobody has come up with a helmet that is thought to be appropriately stylish. When someone does, they will start wearing helmets. But I am not extremely knowledgeable about figure skating--maybe the risks of slamming down onto your head on a hard surface are less than other sports (like skateboarding) where helmets are considered to be a good idea (but also rarely worn).

Another issue that should always be considered when assessing risks associated with caving is that it is real, real hard to get a person out of most caves in a stretcher. The complexity associated with rescue should be a factor that informs people's choice of what protective measures to take while engaging in an activity.
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Postby Andy Shoun » Dec 10, 2007 12:42 pm

E-doc, I work with scouts a lot. There is a nice book for Venture groups on caving. You should look for the book at your council store. They have recommended qualifications for cave trip leaders, basic cave information, and even some stuff on how to build your own gear. They permit the use of climbing specific helmets or construction hard hats with added chin straps. I like to remove and reverse the harness inside the helmet so that the visor on the helmet is facing backwards; it improves your ability to look ahead when crawling. I have also used cycling helmets. The type favored by skate boarders and BMX riders with no visor and more ear protections are my favorite bike helmets. Copious amounts of duct tape will keep lights in place. BSA limits cave exploration to “easy” caves unless the boys have extensive training. Easy caves do not require the use of ropes or other climbing aids.

I’m comfortable with using non-climbing helmets with scouts on “novice” trips. If you follow the scouting guidelines you are demonstrating due diligence. The scouts also limit group size, which is important.
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Postby e-doc » Dec 10, 2007 9:24 pm

Andy Shoun wrote:E-doc, I work with scouts a lot. There is a nice book for Venture groups on caving. I have also used cycling helmets. The type favored by skate boarders and BMX riders with no visor and more ear protections are my favorite bike helmets. ............. BSA limits cave exploration to “easy” caves unless the boys have extensive training. Easy caves do not require the use of ropes or other climbing aids........ The scouts also limit group size, which is important.


Andy, Thanks for the info. I do have the book. The group size is limited to 8-10 but its in the Guide to Safe Scouting. I'm not planning to do anything technical. I don't need to monkey around with a scout stuck on repel in a pit. Maybe when the boys are alot older and have been vertically trained and can do changeovers.

BTW, how is BMX riding in caves? Ride over a pit lip while anchored. That would be cool. :doh:
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