Purchasing a Vertical System at B&M Stores?

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Postby bndgeek » Feb 19, 2007 5:50 pm

I called On Rope 1 and they told me for a 3 day rental, the frog is 20, a rack is 8. You already know this, but just in case anyone else comes tromping through this thread and is curious. :-)
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Postby JoeyS » Feb 19, 2007 8:12 pm

bndgeek wrote:I called On Rope 1 and they told me for a 3 day rental, the frog is 20, a rack is 8. You already know this, but just in case anyone else comes tromping through this thread and is curious. :-)


Unless you live in Chattanooga, or plan to bounce pits all weekend in East Tennessee, I don't see this as practical. I would just save my money up, go to some more vertical practice sessions and later buy the right gear (frogs make great Christmas gifts).

BTW... A "rack" is not an "8". :tonguecheek: :banana:
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Re: Purchasing a Vertical System at B&M Stores?

Postby NZcaver » Apr 22, 2007 8:25 pm

Ozymandias wrote:So, there's the conundrum. Can you build a complete vertical system via B&M (brick and mortar) stores alone? (Just for the basic "frog" system).

So... how did you make out with putting together your system? :question:

This thread should probably be in the On Rope section with all the other good advice, but no harm done. :wink: Since I'm here, I'll throw out a few comments...

caverdoc wrote:Make your foot loop out of static rope/cord, about 8mm.

Nothing wrong with that, but you could do what I do and use 5.5mm Spectra. It's lighter, less bulky, and super-static. Don't use that for cowstails, though! You also have the options of single strand/single large footloop, single strand/two footloops, or two strands/two footloops. I currently use the middle one.

bill fish wrote:Dont buy fancy links or rings either.....simple cheap steel ones are just as good..just a bit heavier/rusty....but actually probably safer than fancy alloy ones...

True, steel ones can be "just as good" - assuming you mean rated maillon rapides (screw links) and not the cheap hardware store versions. When used correctly, the rated steel versions are no safer for our caving purposes than the rated alloy ones. The alloy is more expensive, but is preferred by many (including me) for a harness D maillon because it's much lighter and still rated around 20kN.

bill fish wrote:get "cheap" biners...but they MUST still be LOCKING biners...clean em good after every trip....work the locking part to get the grit out....and mabye a very light oiling to the threads after a wash and dry...

Non-locking carabiners are fine for using on your cowstails, but locking carabiners should be the standard for most everything else (like rigging). Although this cowstail carabiner issue is sometimes hotly debated in the US, the use of non-locking versions is common caving practice around the world. If you make an informed choice to use locking ones instead, then more power to you - to each their own. And yes, clean/inspect all your gear well after each trip. Your life depends on your gear! If you find it necessary to lubricate your carabiners, I suggest using a light coating of silicon rather than oil. Recent testing seems to show many oils don't weaken nylon rope as was previously thought, but I still prefer not to use any oil if I can avoid it.

IMO, GGG, On Rope 1, Bob and Bob, Howie's and others all have good stuff. When it comes to the number 1 "fit" item (the sit harness), I doubt any local "brick and mortar" outdoor stores carry a harness suitable for frogging. In fact, their staff have probably never even seen one! I'm not sure about all the vendors I mentioned, but if you order from GGG they encourage you to try out your harness in a clean environment (hanging from a tree) for a while. If it isn't comfortable and is still in perfect condition, you can send it back.

Also be aware - there are 2 main designs of Frog harness (plus other variations). The more common one consists of a waist/hip strap with a leg loop on each end. The other consists of a waist/hip strap and a butt strap, with smaller straps connecting the two at the front between your legs. It may sound painful, but I know plenty of females and some males who prefer the latter design because it gives them greater comfort. I'm not sure about the other vendors, but GGG make both types and they sell for $50.

Safe caving! :woohoo:
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Re: Purchasing a Vertical System at B&M Stores?

Postby paul » Apr 23, 2007 7:08 am

NZcaver
[quote="bill fish wrote:
Dont buy fancy links or rings either.....simple cheap steel ones are just as good..just a bit heavier/rusty....but actually probably safer than fancy alloy ones...

True, steel ones can be "just as good" - assuming you mean rated maillon rapides (screw links) and not the cheap hardware store versions. When used correctly, the rated steel versions are no safer for our caving purposes than the rated alloy ones. The alloy is more expensive, but is preferred by many (including me) for a harness D maillon because it's much lighter and still rated around 20kN.[/quote]

Perhaps - but check on the strengths of 7mm long opening steel Maillon Rapides (as often used for rigging ropes to anchors - at least here in Europe) as opposed to the same made from Zircal (alloy)...
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Postby graveleye » Apr 23, 2007 9:54 am

a little off topic, and probably an unnecessary plug, but I just bought my frog system and other stuff from IMO and they had it to me the next day. They certainly didnt sit on the order - shipped that stuff right out. Thats great service!
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Re: Purchasing a Vertical System at B&M Stores?

Postby NZcaver » Apr 23, 2007 7:16 pm

paul wrote:check on the strengths of 7mm long opening steel Maillon Rapides (as often used for rigging ropes to anchors - at least here in Europe) as opposed to the same made from Zircal (alloy)...

Those 7mm steel oval maillons are rated about 25kN, and a few people use them over here to attach their rack descender to the harness. They're good for rebelays too, but that type of rigging is somewhat uncommon over this way. :wink: It's safe to say locking alloy carabiners are far more common here than maillons in caving use. To the best of my knowledge there is no PPE-rated 7mm Zicral oval. But I do have a couple of 10mm Zicral ovals, which are also rated at 25kN. The specs can be found here.

The main thrust of my maillon comment was directed at the central D on Frog-style harnesses. For many US Froggers that might be the only maillon they regularly use. As you probably know, they're available in zinc-plated steel, stainless steel, and Zicral alloy - all 10mm and PPE-rated, but varying in price, weight, and MBS.
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