Would anyone buy a urethane pack if it was bigger then Swago

[ek]

Will the accessory cord hold in place, or will it slip freely between the two straps?

[Lava]

In most situations it does freely slip through, but otherwise it seems to stay in place when the straps are fully pulled through and the biner touches the grommet.

[ek]

Is that to say that it performs the same as the webbing, except that it's easier to remove entirely?

[Chads93GT]

I didn't realize that car keys and your wallet were essential items to bring along into the cave. Not a lot of ATM's in the caves in Missouri, but I have yet to cave out of state. My Swaygo SINK is more than enough for me, and I can carry a ton of stuff in it. If I ever need to carry more gear for whatever reason, I would use my lost creek TAG pack on my side.

[Lava]

Is that to say that it performs the same as the webbing, except that it's easier to remove entirely?

Well, yeaah... that's why I did it!

It has been long enough now that I've put the memory of the webbing mostly behind me, but the lasting impression with the new accessory cord is "wow, this is a hell of a lot better".

[Cheryl Jones]

Doesn't the cord cut into your shoulders?

Cheryl

[Cody JW]

I didn't realize that car keys and your wallet were essential items to bring along into the cave. Not a lot of ATM's in the caves in Missouri, but I have yet to cave out of state. My Swaygo SINK is more than enough for me, and I can carry a ton of stuff in it. If I ever need to carry more gear for whatever reason, I would use my lost creek TAG pack on my side.

Nice to see we have a comedian in the group.I am assuming you put your keys under the bumper or maybe on top the tire,all car thieves know this trick,I am sure you "hide" your wallet in your car.The first time you get your car broken into when caving and they get a hold of your credit cards and you spend two years cleaning up that mess you will know why I do this.I do not go anywhere without my wallet and you need your keys to get to the cave so how else do you plan to keep these items secure.I got broken into during the early 80s and have carried my wallet and keys in my lost creek pack since then with no problems.Also the person who made the suggestion about the biner instead of the buckle, mine had the biner when it came new and when it dumped my stuff the biner was still clipped in.

[VACaver]

I didn't realize that car keys and your wallet were essential items to bring along into the cave. Not a lot of ATM's in the caves in Missouri, but I have yet to cave out of state. My Swaygo SINK is more than enough for me, and I can carry a ton of stuff in it. If I ever need to carry more gear for whatever reason, I would use my lost creek TAG pack on my side.

Nice to see we have a comedian in the group.I am assuming you put your keys under the bumper or maybe on top the tire,all car thieves know this trick,I am sure you "hide" your wallet in your car.The first time you get your car broken into when caving and they get a hold of your credit cards and you spend two years cleaning up that mess you will know why I do this.I do not go anywhere without my wallet and you need your keys to get to the cave so how else do you plan to keep these items secure.I got broken into during the early 80s and have carried my wallet and keys in my lost creek pack since then with no problems.Also the person who made the suggestion about the biner instead of the buckle, mine had the biner when it came new and when it dumped my stuff the biner was still clipped in.

I'm curious...if the carabiner was still clipped in, how did the pack come open?

[ek]

Nice to see we have a comedian in the group.I am assuming you put your keys under the bumper or maybe on top the tire,all car thieves know this trick,I am sure you "hide" your wallet in your car.The first time you get your car broken into when caving and they get a hold of your credit cards and you spend two years cleaning up that mess you will know why I do this.I do not go anywhere without my wallet and you need your keys to get to the cave so how else do you plan to keep these items secure.I got broken into during the early 80s and have carried my wallet and keys in my lost creek pack since then with no problems.Also the person who made the suggestion about the biner instead of the buckle, mine had the biner when it came new and when it dumped my stuff the biner was still clipped in.

This is off-topic, but the subject of losing wallets is relevant to cavers because most of us don't bring them into caves, it's a pain to do so, and because bringing it into a cave can result in the destruction of its contents in some cases.

You say that it took you two years to clean up the mess from losing your wallet and having a miscreant use your credit cards, and you suggest that this will happen to others who have their wallets stolen. I don't want to get into a protracted discussion of your specific financial situation arising from that event, but I think it's important to point out that this is not a common result of getting one's wallet stolen. I've had my credit card numbers used by fraudsters. I found out about it *from* the credit card company, and I asked them to cancel the card. Then canceled the charges and issued a new card. If you find that your wallet is stolen, you should immediately call your credit card companies and ask them to cancel and reissue your cards. It's a hassle, but if you take this proactive measure, then the hassle is short-lived and without significant financial consequences to you.

Similarly, insurance cards and organizational membership cards can be replaced.

One thing that some people do, which is inadvisable, especially when at elevated risk of having a wallet stolen, is to keep their social security cards in their wallets. Don't do that.

While bringing car keys into the cave is one option, and something that has been done on trips I've been on, it's an option with significant drawbacks. It carries an elevated risk of losing them, because you can drop your pack and have it be unreachable. You can leave your pack open, or you or someone else opening your pack can accidentally leave them out. You might say that you'd never let someone else use your pack without you immediately present, but when a crisis situation arises, those notions go straight out the window. I'd argue that in most caving areas (though not all) it's better to hide the keys at the entrance or leave them in a bag. Sometimes the elevated risk of crime may substantiate a decision to bring keys into the cave rather than leaving them at the vehicle or the entrance. But if you bring your keys into the cave then in doing so you're consenting to have your car window smashed if the keys are lost and the vehicle must be accessed due to an emergency. If it's necessary to drive the vehicle to get to a phone and call out a rescue, and you don't have a spare key in the car, well, then you've created an unfortunate and possibly deadly situation.

There's a saying that a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged and a liberal is a conservative who's been arrested. My point is not to discuss politics, but to point out that people's experiences color their opinions about what should be done. You've had very bad experiences leaving keys and wallets at the vehicle, and the reasons you bring up against doing so, from your own personal experience, are valid and important considerations. But that other people would agree with you if they shared your experiences doesn't make you right.

[Cody JW]

Nice to see we have a comedian in the group.I am assuming you put your keys under the bumper or maybe on top the tire,all car thieves know this trick,I am sure you "hide" your wallet in your car.The first time you get your car broken into when caving and they get a hold of your credit cards and you spend two years cleaning up that mess you will know why I do this.I do not go anywhere without my wallet and you need your keys to get to the cave so how else do you plan to keep these items secure.I got broken into during the early 80s and have carried my wallet and keys in my lost creek pack since then with no problems.Also the person who made the suggestion about the biner instead of the buckle, mine had the biner when it came new and when it dumped my stuff the biner was still clipped in.

This is off-topic, but the subject of losing wallets is relevant to cavers because most of us don't bring them into caves, it's a pain to do so, and because bringing it into a cave can result in the destruction of its contents in some cases.

You say that it took you two years to clean up the mess from losing your wallet and having a miscreant use your credit cards, and you suggest that this will happen to others who have their wallets stolen. I don't want to get into a protracted discussion of your specific financial situation arising from that event, but I think it's important to point out that this is not a common result of getting one's wallet stolen. I've had my credit card numbers used by fraudsters. I found out about it *from* the credit card company, and I asked them to cancel the card. Then canceled the charges and issued a new card. If you find that your wallet is stolen, you should immediately call your credit card companies and ask them to cancel and reissue your cards. It's a hassle, but if you take this proactive measure, then the hassle is short-lived and without significant financial consequences to you.

Similarly, insurance cards and organizational membership cards can be replaced.

One thing that some people do, which is inadvisable, especially when at elevated risk of having a wallet stolen, is to keep their social security cards in their wallets. Don't do that.

While bringing car keys into the cave is one option, and something that has been done on trips I've been on, it's an option with significant drawbacks. It carries an elevated risk of losing them, because you can drop your pack and have it be unreachable. You can leave your pack open, or you or someone else opening your pack can accidentally leave them out. You might say that you'd never let someone else use your pack without you immediately present, but when a crisis situation arises, those notions go straight out the window. I'd argue that in most caving areas (though not all) it's better to hide the keys at the entrance or leave them in a bag. Sometimes the elevated risk of crime may substantiate a decision to bring keys into the cave rather than leaving them at the vehicle or the entrance. But if you bring your keys into the cave then in doing so you're consenting to have your car window smashed if the keys are lost and the vehicle must be accessed due to an emergency. If it's necessary to drive the vehicle to get to a phone and call out a rescue, and you don't have a spare key in the car, well, then you've created an unfortunate and possibly deadly situation.

There's a saying that a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged and a liberal is a conservative who's been arrested. My point is not to discuss politics, but to point out that people's experiences color their opinions about what should be done. You've had very bad experiences leaving keys and wallets at the vehicle, and the reasons you bring up against doing so, from your own personal experience, are valid and important considerations. But that other people would agree with you if they shared your experiences doesn't make you right.

I appreciate all the responces on this but like I said , I have been doing this for over 25 years and have not lost my wallet or keys once, by leaving them outside the cave I had a mess to clean up,I tend to go by real world experience more than the opinions of others.I have been on vertical, wetsuit lots of crawling caves, you name it been there done it and have never had a problem doing it that way.I have been on trips where fellow cavers have left personal items outside the cave and have come out and found things gone.In my case they broke a window so the key issue is moot.Keep in mind most locals know that caver parking lots are places where cars are left unattended for hours at a time with no one within miles sometimes of the car.They can break glass , let alarms go off and no one will hear.I am not telling anyone what to do, that is just what I do and I have not had a problem after 25 years of doing it that way.You guys do what you want , just keep in mind that there is more crime now that the economy is bad.As for how the pack opened, others have told me maybe I did not roll it up enough before closing, it was my first time with the pack and maybe i did something wrong but I still could never trust one.