It can happen to the best of us.

[Marlatt]

Apparently, the belay loop on Todd's harness was very worn. Just how badly worn isn't clear (per the discussion on mountainproject.com, the belay loop has been recovered, but I haven't seen a picture of it. )

Extremely intertesting tests by Kolin Powick at Black Diamond
(http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/scene/beta/qc_kp.php) suggest that even a very badly damaged belay loop can be very, very strong. (Like > 2900 lbf even after being 75% cut through). I'd like to see the failed loop - and wonder if it had been exposed to anything like battery acid.

I used to worry about the single-point failure mode introduced by the use of the loop - but in light of the testing, and given that there are a number of other single-points elsewhere in the system (eg, the biner/mallion, the belay/rappel device, the rope), I think that the potential risks due to cross-loading the belay biner, etc., probably outweigh concerns about the belay loop.

swm

[hank moon]

I cannot understand why some folks say they don't trust belay loops, but have no problem trusting webbing, buckles, rope, maillons, etc. All of which have also failed at some point or 'nother. The solution to this kind of problem is found in developing sound personal safety habits and judgement, not in the quest for double or triple-bombproof.

[hunter]

It seems a little unusual that it failed whilst he was rappelling you would expect the forces involved with a rappel to be much less than those of taking a fall "question:

Just FYI, a belay loop is used for belaying but not tying into the rope. This is done by running the rope through both loops of the harness directly(like the belay loop is attached to the harness). I assume this is because there is no cross-loading danger when tying in and I also think it helps keep you from flipping upside down when you take a leader fall.

James

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I cannot understand why some folks say they don't trust belay loops, but have no problem trusting webbing, buckles, rope, maillons, etc. All of which have also failed at some point or 'nother. The solution to this kind of problem is found in developing sound personal safety habits and judgement, not in the quest for double or triple-bombproof.

I agree that safe personal habits is the most preferable answer but in this case inspection actually picked up the fault but the temptation of one more time was too much apparently.

Some thoughts....

Wear on the inside of loops is less obvious and possibly less likely to be seen than worn carabiners mailons tapes or ropes.

I think a harness is probably particularly prone to being used beyond it's propper retirement date. This is possibly more so for climbers than cavers because cavers are forced to inspect thier gear every time they clean it after a muddy vertical trip. Climbers like to keep clean so aren't forced to inspect thier gear in the same way. OK a caver could just hose it off or throw it in a bucket but I take my harness apart and scrub it clean.

Also I think people become attached to a harness more than some of thier other vertical gear, it is also more expensive to replace than a tape, mailon or carabiner. I also think people have trouble telling when a harness should be retired, wear damage is easier but stuff like being old or the effect dirt and mud may have had in weakening the harness? it's harder to retire a perfectly functional looking harness that is 5 years old than a 2 year old harness that the straps are wearing through. (I know in this case we are talking about a wear situation here)

My Pit Viper harness and it seems it can fail at any one point (except the central mailon) and I will still be OK, I won't push it that far, but for those people that do a safe failure mode would save thier life. Only a fool would keep using thier harness after it had already failed IMO.

Maybe some thing like a smaller belay loop inside a larger belay loop so if the smaller loop wears through and fails the larger loop catches it ? if you had two belay loops side by side I guess there could be the situation where they are both worn and the failure of one shock loads (slightly) the other and they both fail....

[fuzzy-hair-man]

It seems a little unusual that it failed whilst he was rappelling you would expect the forces involved with a rappel to be much less than those of taking a fall "question:

Just FYI, a belay loop is used for belaying but not tying into the rope. This is done by running the rope through both loops of the harness directly(like the belay loop is attached to the harness). I assume this is because there is no cross-loading danger when tying in and I also think it helps keep you from flipping upside down when you take a leader fall.

James

OK I get you, I had assumed that the one attachment point was used for everything.... I'm not overly familar with climbing harnesses.

[chh]

It is a sad situation indeed. I too would like to see the belay loop, but would be surprised if such things will be made public. I also have no problem trusting my belay loops, or the belay loops of other people when they are belaying me. They are quite strong, the strongest part of the harness usually. I believe that to meet CE requirements they must be rated to AT LEAST 15 kn. I would venture to say that most of them are much stronger. And you can get them replaced. I'm think Yates and Fish might sew you a new (or additional) loop and the manufacturer MIGHT depending on the manufacturer and the age of the harness. Allthough I can't imagine the rest of the harness being in terribly good shape if you are thinking of replacing your belay loop. What's the cost of a new harness in the long run?

I used to be pretty cavalier about getting off routes. I never used a backup on rappell while climbing. I was pretty accustomed to a rack, which I still rappell on with no backup. But after a few years climbing having big rocks just miss me, being hit by smaller ones, getting attacked by wasps and bees (to which I'm allergic), REALLY close lighting strikes, and gingerly stepping around copperheads on ledges to get on rappell, I use a backup much more frequently now. And that's with gear in good shape. I know it's been done ad nauseum, but when a sad event like this one occurs there's always a kind of mantra in my head going for a while afterward. Something to the effect of, "make the right compromises between safety, efficiency, and speed in your given circumstance", which of course has infinite permutations.

The community doesn't really know what happened yet. But it is a sobering reminder that bad things can indeed happen to the most accomplished among us. My heart goes out to Jim who lost a partner and especially to Amy, Jake, Hannah, and Sarah who lost a huband and father. Truely sad.

[Scott McCrea]

...having big rocks just miss me, being hit by smaller ones, getting attacked by wasps and bees (to which I'm allergic), REALLY close lighting strikes, and gingerly stepping around copperheads on ledges to get on rappell...

Note to self: think twice before climbing or caving with chh.

[chh]

Nah, Scott..... Just THINK. That's the important part right?

[hunter]

OK I get you, I had assumed that the one attachment point was used for everything.... Embarassed I'm not overly familar with climbing harnesses.

I started thinking about this again and realized I have to eat a bit of crow. Even though you don't tie into the belay loop it is still holding a fall, just on the belayers side ! This means your observation that it is surprising it broke under body weight instead of when catching a fall is dead on.
I expect chh is right and we won't get all the details (although I will certainly be checking Climbing), I wonder if the webbing failed or the stitching.

James