Helmet and lamps for newbie

[ariklee]

A friend just started caving in Black Hills - and her birthday is this week!! I am going to guy her a helmet and (maybe) a lamp (depending on my funds). I need some advice on a few things:

Lamp - Carbide or LED? What is best for the mostly horizontal grovel dry caves here? I used a carbide lamp many years ago in a small cave over by Jewel and it burst into flames when I was in a hole the size of a basketball and 20 feet long...too much water I think....but anyway, I saw lots of reference to Autolite, are these still made? And how would they be for SD caving? I would be willing to get for her a used carbide lamp but want a new helmet.

Helmet - I read a post that said "No way to mount carbide lamp except to drill holes.." or something along those lines (yes I read many posts before posting a new thread...). In the carbide case, my question is how to mount to a climbing helmet? Can any lamp be mounted to any helmet? (I know, dumb question, I mean can any lamp be EASILY mounted, or do I have to buy special kits like those referenced in other posts)

I take her climbing in the needles sometimes so this would have to be a dual use helmet with easily removable carbide lamp (if she uses carbide as her main light).

I will heed advice from other posts and save the helmet receipt in case is doesn't fit right!

Thanks

arik

[pacaver]

You'll undoubtedly get 4.7 quadzillion responses to this, but I think a Petzl Ecrin Roc with a Princeton Tec Apex LED headlamp strapped to it would make her a pretty happy caver. It's a combo I like. If you don't mind spending big bucks, a Sten light would make her even happier!

[Dwight Livingston]

You'll undoubtedly get 4.7 quadzillion responses to this, but I think a Petzl Ecrin Roc with a Princeton Tec Apex LED headlamp strapped to it would make her a pretty happy caver. It's a combo I like. If you don't mind spending big bucks, a Sten light would make her even happier! :grin:

Note that the Ecrin Roc comes with it's own "helmet clips," which will hold the headband of the Apex, or most any other headlamp headband, securely in place without drilling holes. For most other helmets, you should buy a set of 4 helmet clips, which will also do the job nicely.

I have many carbide headlamps, nearly all of which are Autolites. I have drilled many a hole in my helmets. That said, I'd recommend an LED headlamp for a beginner. I think pacaver's recommmendation is a good one.

Dwight

[nordicjw]

I agree on the Petzl Ecrin Roc. I have one and am very happy with the adjustablility of it. It would be dual purpose. The helmet has to fit the person correctly and be comfortable. If your going to buy her one , keep the receipt just in case it just not right for her. I would go with the LED type light. There are many out there in a wide range of prices. I have the Sten light system. (bucks) so unless your sure she or you will continue to use it , then the Sten might not be a good first choice. Foxfury Performance series are nice light, extremely wide arc type beam. I've heard many good things about the Princeton Tec Apex. The Roc helmet and either the Foxfury or Apex would cost you around $150 total. Check Inner Mountain Sports, Karst Sports, Bob and Bob, OnRope 1 for ideas. Good Luck

[Steven Johnson]

On this topic, what's good-but-economical helmet suitable for vertical work?

Our grotto would like to buy a couple of helmets as beginner-loaners for vertical practices and novice caving.

Ecrin Rocs are great, but just wondering if there are more economical options that people can recommend as being adequate for such uses.

[BenC]

I was in the Hills caving not too long ago. I used carbide the first trip and then went straight to electric. Carbide in a dry environment carbide really has no advantage over LED. While in a wet and cold cave carbide can help keep you warm. Helmet wise I like my Edelrid Ultralite. About the same price as a Ecrin, comes with clips for elastic but I like the suspension better.

[cheshire]

I'm a real fan of carbide, but I'm not sure it's a great choice for someone first starting out. LEDs have a color temperature that I'm really not fond of, and in my opinion far inferior to carbide. Though LEDs are less mess, less maintenence, (less fun) and you have a lot fewer comments about getting with the 21st century.

If you do get into carbide (which you know you should if you really want to get into heaven), don't buy a Minex. It's an affordable, but intollerable lamp. It will work well enough to light your way through a cave, but it's too unreliable. Mike Lites are grand, but the supply is touch and go, and the price is high.

Take a look at the link in my tagline. You can get an introduction to carbide lamps there.

[ariklee]

Thanks for the info on carbide. Also, the carbide lamp link you provided chesire was excellent. Black Hills has a huge mining history so there should be many lamps around if I look. Also, thanks BenC, good info.

I picked her up the Ecrin Roc yesterday. I tried on the other Petzl, the Elios, and that didn't fit my melon at all, very uncomfortable. Would have liked to try the Edelrid Ultralite but there are none available locally, and hard for me to mail order something like this (I'm a "hands on" buyer ).

For you Steven, I would recommend OSHA or MSHA approved cheapy (if you can find them with chin strap). This is not from caving experience, but mining experience - I used to be a miner. Helmets were comfortable but no chin strap, which is very important (as you know). An OSHA helmet will likely be good enough and if they like caving and want to stick with it then they can get their own nicer helmet. Just my opinion, there are alot more experienced folks on this website.

Thanks for the info!

arik

[karst97]

Carbide lights have other issues -

- Can't be turned on/off quickly, which means they are still producing gas. We ran into this all the time when scouting for caves, or when driving home after caving, or driving to another cave. A very few people can have violent reactions to the gas in an enclosed space (my light set off a reaction in a woman).

- Similar to above, carbide lights often stink when running. People who are used to caving with carbide learn to love the smell, however you end up smelling the light and not the cave... I've heard carbide supporters say that their lamp doesn't smell, and that I was just caving with someone who didn't know how to operate one, but that argument is similar to a cigarette smoker telling me that their second-hand smoke can't bother me... Yeah, right.

- They put quite a weight on the front of your helmet if you get a cap lamp style. Otherwise you have a tube and hip-mounted generator, which can get tangled/gets in the way.

The modern LED lights are pretty light in the first place, and you can offset the weight by putting batteries on the back of the helmet. No wires, no bulge on your hip from a battery pack, etc. Much easier to deal with overall.

Give me a 3-7W LED light with a helmet-mounted battery pack and I'm totally happy.

Scott

[Adam Byrd]

Carbide lights have other issues -
A very few people can have violent reactions to the gas in an enclosed space (my light set off a reaction in a woman).

Scott

Really? What kind of reaction? Let's hear more about this.

[cheshire]

Carbide lights have other issues -

- Can't be turned on/off quickly, which means they are still producing gas. We ran into this all the time when scouting for caves, or when driving home after caving, or driving to another cave. A very few people can have violent reactions to the gas in an enclosed space (my light set off a reaction in a woman).

It sets off migraines in my wife, but other than that, I've not heard of anything. What happened to the poor lady in your caving group?

- Similar to above, carbide lights often stink when running. People who are used to caving with carbide learn to love the smell, however you end up smelling the light and not the cave... I've heard carbide supporters say that their lamp doesn't smell, and that I was just caving with someone who didn't know how to operate one.

It really does depend on the lamp and its efficiency. I've gone caving with a number of lamps. Some smell, some don't. That being said, they are called "stinkies" in the UK, and it's not without reason. Upon startup and during carbide changes you are going to smell the acetylene. But I've got one very efficient lamp and if we go the whole trip without changing the carbide, you'd never know I had one. Another lamp (that I'll never cave with again) blows acetylene up the water tank the whole time. Whether it smells or not really is a matter of lamp personality.

- They put quite a weight on the front of your helmet if you get a cap lamp style. Otherwise you have a tube and hip-mounted generator, which can get tangled/gets in the way.

Touche. The weight is a drag.

The modern LED lights are pretty light in the first place, and you can offset the weight by putting batteries on the back of the helmet. No wires, no bulge on your hip from a battery pack, etc. Much easier to deal with overall.

They are a lot easier to deal with, and I'd recomend an LED to a novice any day without question. You can go a whole trip without a battery change (and newbies really tend to gum up the inside of lamps) there's no cleanup. The mechanics of the LEDs are a lot less complicated to boot. If something goes wrong, it's not as much of a troubleshooting issue.

For me, it's a personal choice. I love the diffuse, but I don't much like the color temperature. I'd rather put up with the hastles of the carbide than the light of the LED on most simple trips. But, even I don't think that carbide is for every caver or every trip. (Particularly if I'm caving with my wife.) :)

[NZcaver]

...I think a Petzl Ecrin Roc with a Princeton Tec Apex LED headlamp strapped to it would make her a pretty happy caver. It's a combo I like...

That woud be my recommendation too...

[graveleye]

seems like I have seen pictures of some poor persons pants all scorched in the butt from someone crawling behind them with a carbide...

[Teresa]

...I think a Petzl Ecrin Roc with a Princeton Tec Apex LED headlamp strapped to it would make her a pretty happy caver. It's a combo I like...

That woud be my recommendation too...

Ok...someone want to 'give' me them?

If you get this combo for her, I think I'd expect a good dinner in return...at least.

Teresa

[hank moon]

You'll undoubtedly get 4.7 quadzillion responses to this, but I think a Petzl Ecrin Roc with a Princeton Tec Apex LED headlamp strapped to it would make her a pretty happy caver. It's a combo I like. If you don't mind spending big bucks, a Sten light would make her even happier!

The PT Corona is another light worth considering. Can be had for 1/2 the price of an APEX and is brighter than the latter when using the 5 mm LEDs. Its one disadvantage: no spot beam, but for horizontal caving this is not a real issue for most folks.