Petzl Duo- upgrade halogen to LED

[NZcaver]

You can get Duo's all day long on eBay for $5-30. Full face module is only $86. So complete price is not much more than an Apex, but well over twice the light.

Interesting. A quick check of completed listings on eBay shows used Duos going anywhere from $20-70. No used Apex headlamps listed, but plenty of new ones starting around $50.

The Duo (with 5 and then 8 LED inserts and a 1 watt LED bulb replacement) was my primary headlamp for about 6 years in the early 2000's, then the PT Apex. I still have a couple of each and they both have their pros and cons. I don't feel compelled to defend the Apex too vigorously, but after experimenting with waterproof mods I've never again had a water or electrical problem. And once I figured out a better way to mount it to the helmet, broken clips on the battery compartment are a thing of the past. Sure brightness and efficiency is several generations behind current technology, but being relatively cheap off-the-shelf does appeal to many people.

Question about the "full face module" and similar custom inserts for the Duo. Do any of these allow you to run both lights at the same time? One feature of the Apex I REALLY like is the spaced flood LEDs. I find the light enhances my depth perception much better than a single spot or flood. I'm tempted to pick up one of those custom Duo inserts because a caver can never have too many gadgets.

[Marduke]

No, but Bif might be willing to do a custom one for you if you ask real nice (and pay a custom price I'm sure).

[Jeff Bartlett]

You can get Duo's all day long on eBay for $5-30. Full face module is only $86. So complete price is not much more than an Apex, but well over twice the light.

While this is a completely pointless debate at this point, I feel the need to correct a few of these claims. You make three assertions in the sentence quoted above: (1) that DUOs are readily available on eBay for as little as $5, (2) and that the upgraded DUO is "well over twice the light" as an Apex , and (3) that a used DUO + CustomDUO upgrade is comparable in price to a new Apex. The first two are entirely false, and the second is irrelevant at best.

First, there are 3 used DUOs that have sold in the US on eBay in the last 3 weeks, with selling prices of $20, $25 and $70. So let's revise your estimate to reflect reality a bit better; "all day long" apparently means you saw this happen once, and as such it is misleading. Your argument is more compelling when it uses facts instead of uninformed conjecture anyway. See screen capture, attached below.

Second, while your "well over twice the light" statement is more subjective than substantive, we can at least look at the available figures. CustomDUO specifies approximate values of 25, 40 140 and 280 lumens for its three settings, with a published runtime of 6 hours for its medium (40 140 lumen) setting. This is certainly very bright; even the newest Apex "only" claims 200 lumens on its highest setting. However, the CustomDUO is, so far as I can tell, unregulated light, which means the light is only achieving these settings when the batteries are new and the output trails off thereafter. The Apex provides 8 hours of regulated light on its "maxbright low" and "5mm high" settings, which means consistent output throughout that 8-hour period, and 96-100 hours of total output before it stops producing light*. While I certainly don't want to cave on an Apex that's been running for 100 hours -- or 50 hours, or 30 hours -- I think it's fair to say that the Apex can perform for 8 hours on these setting with equal or greater consistency and output as the CustomDUO.

Unfortunately, Princeton Tec does not provide lumen ratings for the lower settings to offer a direct comparison. Personally, I've avoided the Petzl lights specifically because they are unregulated and I hate the inconsistent light output; my Tikka actually flickered like a candle, and I've watched halogen DUOs do the same. I shall stand corrected if the CustomDUO does address this issue, but they make no claim of that on their product page.

In regard to your third statement, I don't see what the value of discussing used pricing is in the first place. Apexes are available used, too, or on sale, or you could buy a broken one and send it in for a warranty replacement, but that's not the point. The point is that X costs $109 + $92 -- that's using a USD conversion rate for 2011-12-08, and I even took it all the way to Paypal checkout to make sure I expressed that price correctly -- and Y costs $89. If X used costs ?? + $92 and Y used costs ?? ...what's the comparison you're making? That you might be able to find used thing X cheaper than brand-new thing Y? That's not relevant.

Anyway, there's not really any value in continuing to discuss this, since you're clearly not interested in comparing facts. If you're just upset that I didn't like Sungura's corset photos that you apparently helped with, we can discuss that privately, as that would be more productive than your attempts to undermine everything I post.



*Princeton Tec describes "total burn time" as "the total time the headlamp produces a minimum of 0.25 lux at 2 meters."
See here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ptec-user- ... 182296385/

Source for info about Princeton Tec Apex: http://princetontec.com/index.php?q=apex
Source for info about CustomDUO full face module: http://customduo.co.uk/fullface.aspx

[Cody JW]

They tend to last only about 1-2 years before you have either A) waterproofness issues, or B) electrical issues, or C) scratched optics, or D) broken strap clips on the battery pack.
Oh, and the battery life (really system efficacy) is about a 1/3 of something like an updated Duo or a Fenix.

I don't disagree with any of these points -- and I use a Stenlight exclusively -- but we're comparing a $90 light (Apex) to a $200 light (Petzl Duo 5 is $109, plus the CustomDUO full-face ugrade is $92 in USD right now). That's not to mention Princeton Tec's lifetime warranty, of course.

Repeat: the CustomDUO upgrade ALONE, without a headlamp to put it into, costs more than a new Apex.
But you guys can pretty much keep your cheap plastic commodity-grade lamps anyway... I'll keep my Sten.

First of all Jeff , nobody is trying to compare the Duo to the Sten. I would hope that with the Sten at 370 dollars it sure the hell better be a better light. All I have been trying to say if YOU ALREADY HAVE THE DUO SITTING AROUND the custom duo is a very attractive option. If I had to spend 80 bucks on a Custom Duo or 80 bucks on an Apex there is no choice as far as I am concerned. You gotta love the Sten guys that like to compare their light to lights that cost one fourth as The sten. You can keep your Sten and I will save another 175 and get the Rude Nora ( made by the same people as The Custom duo) more than twice as bright. As far as The Duo being a "cheap commodity grade lamp" get back with me in 18 years and we will see if that Sten is still running without ANY problems like my Duo has served me for the last 18 years problem free. Hope yours is better than some I have seen .

[Marduke]

HA! You go on about the Apex's regulation (which is practically non-existent), then quote it's UNREGULATED runtimes! Truth is, the efficacy of even the new Apex's is, in real life, about 1/3 of a CD (which is well regulated with ACCURATE runtime claims).

Come back when you actually learn about how lights work, rather than only halfway understanding advertisements (which can say whatever the manufacturer wants).

I will add that I've seen FAR more failed Sten's than I have Duo's... There is a reason that the most common caving light in the rest of the world is far and above a Duo. It's has a reliability record of almost two decades, and with CD inserts will outdo anything twice the price.

[potholer]

...Second, while your "well over twice the light" statement is more subjective than substantive, we can at least look at the available figures. CustomDUO specifies approximate values of 25, 40 and 280 lumens for its three settings, with a published runtime of 6 hours for its medium (40 lumen) setting. This is certainly very bright; even the newest Apex "only" claims 200 lumens on its highest setting. However, the CustomDUO is, so far as I can tell, unregulated light, which means the light is only achieving these settings when the batteries are new and the output trails off thereafter.

The middle setting seems to be 140 rather than 40, and unless I'm very much mistaken, or John's changed the operation since last time I was chatting with him and comparing notes, the unit is regulated through the vast majority of the battery life.

[Jeff Bartlett]

...Second, while your "well over twice the light" statement is more subjective than substantive, we can at least look at the available figures. CustomDUO specifies approximate values of 25, 40 and 280 lumens for its three settings, with a published runtime of 6 hours for its medium (40 lumen) setting. This is certainly very bright; even the newest Apex "only" claims 200 lumens on its highest setting. However, the CustomDUO is, so far as I can tell, unregulated light, which means the light is only achieving these settings when the batteries are new and the output trails off thereafter.

The middle setting seems to be 140 rather than 40, and unless I'm very much mistaken, or John's changed the operation since last time I was chatting with him and comparing notes, the unit is regulated through the vast majority of the battery life.

Wow, good eye -- that's a typo! I'll correct it.
If it's a regulated unit, they would do well to market it as such.

[Marduke]

...Second, while your "well over twice the light" statement is more subjective than substantive, we can at least look at the available figures. CustomDUO specifies approximate values of 25, 40 and 280 lumens for its three settings, with a published runtime of 6 hours for its medium (40 lumen) setting. This is certainly very bright; even the newest Apex "only" claims 200 lumens on its highest setting. However, the CustomDUO is, so far as I can tell, unregulated light, which means the light is only achieving these settings when the batteries are new and the output trails off thereafter.

The middle setting seems to be 140 rather than 40, and unless I'm very much mistaken, or John's changed the operation since last time I was chatting with him and comparing notes, the unit is regulated through the vast majority of the battery life.

Wow, good eye -- that's a typo! I'll correct it.
If it's a regulated unit, they would do well to market it as such.

They do...

http://customduo.co.uk/shop.aspx

[Jeff Bartlett]

If it's a regulated unit, they would do well to market it as such.

They do...
http://customduo.co.uk/shop.aspx

I stand corrected. Of course, in my foolishness -- "I don't know how lights work," after all -- I was looking on the specific product page, which does not include this information, for details about the specific product. Silly me.

[Bama632]

Thanks for the suggestions

[Cody JW]

I will add that I've seen FAR more failed Sten's than I have Duo's... There is a reason that the most common caving light in the rest of the world is far and above a Duo. It's has a reliability record of almost two decades, and with CD inserts will outdo anything twice the price.

This reminds me of a facebook post I had recently seen. It was a video of a recent Italian cave rescue in what appeared to be a vertical cave. I noticed all the rescue personnel were using Duos. I thought to myself " I am sure that these guys who are entrusted to do complex vertical rescues likely know what they are doing " and I suspect would not use "cheap plastic lamps". With all the great new LEDs out there these days I wonder why guys like this were using 20 year old light tech. ?? Did not see the first Sten. Interesting .

[Marduke]

I will add that I've seen FAR more failed Sten's than I have Duo's... There is a reason that the most common caving light in the rest of the world is far and above a Duo. It's has a reliability record of almost two decades, and with CD inserts will outdo anything twice the price.

This reminds me of a facebook post I had recently seen. It was a video of a recent Italian cave rescue in what appeared to be a vertical cave. I noticed all the rescue personnel were using Duos. I thought to myself " I am sure that these guys who are entrusted to do complex vertical rescues likely know what they are doing " and I suspect would not use "cheap plastic lamps". With all the great new LEDs out there these days I wonder why guys like this were using 20 year old light tech. ?? Did not see the first Sten. Interesting .

I know of the exact video you speak of. If you look closely, they are all using CD dropins inside those Duo's.

[Cody JW]

I figured they were. The whole point of my post was that rescue personnel are likely aware of current lighting choices and have the resources to use just about anything, but still use Duos.

[JR-Orion]

For what it's worth, the LED array on the stock Petzl looks to be regulated-

"This second light source has three lighting levels, which are regulated to ensure constant lighting. When the batteries become weak, the headlamp switches automatically to reserve power mode."

I doubt the halogen bulb is regulated, but then again I've never really used it.

[Marduke]

For what it's worth, the LED array on the stock Petzl looks to be regulated-

"This second light source has three lighting levels, which are regulated to ensure constant lighting. When the batteries become weak, the headlamp switches automatically to reserve power mode."

I doubt the halogen bulb is regulated, but then again I've never really used it.

To my knowledge there is only one commercially available regulated incandescent on the market, the SureFire A2 Aviator. The Duo halogen is definitely not regulated.