Pack Review - a nice cheap waterproof one!

[Amazingracer]

Are you referring to the Swaygo packs? If so, why the need for AquaSeal?
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As for the upside-down orientation - you really have no idea why the Swaygo was designed like that? It's simple ergonomics. For most people it contours very well to the back, and in my opinion the design was a stroke of genius. Learning to pack it upside-down and secure it properly shouldn't be too big a mental leap for the average caver.

I have had to Aquaseal my Swaygo, after about 2 years of use. I developed holes in the bottom of the pack where you roll it up. The edge kept getting chewed up. Aquaseal sealed it back up some what. I still keep everything in a dry bag even in a Swaygo.

And yea, upside down orientation was weird the first time I packed it, but after that, A OK. I even have the older style with the plastic buckles and have never suffered a pack dump in cave. In fact of all the folks I know with Swaygos, no one has ever suffered a pack dump.

CODYJW, are you sure the swaygo was actually closed properly?

[Cody JW]

I no longer have mine, I got lucky and sold it after the first use. It takes about a 3 grade level of physics understanding to see that the design is flawed ( in the name of ergonomics). In that you have to close it just right or you are vulnerable. They are popular and lots of people love them and use them with no problem.In thery it seems good. But if your hands are cold and you are tired after a long trip you may not be quite as alert and may not get it just right. I prefer to know that if my pack does not get closed I have the draw string and the opening is on top, assuming you are upright gravity will keep you stuff in. I think they should of at least used a draw string as a back up with gravity being a central theme here. This forum is about opinions, I have mine and Swaygo people have opinons. Use what you want, I prefer to have gravity working with me.

[Scott McCrea]

I dumped my Swaygo Pack once. I simply forgot to close it before I slung it on my back. That's embarrassing.

Dry bags inside of packs are heavy, eat up a lot space and unnecessarily durable. A trash bag could do the same thing, if you can keep the stuff inside it from poking holes. What's more, it doesn't prevent the pack material from soaking up water and mud.

[Cody JW]

I had mine closed ( I thought) maybe did not have it wrapped 3 times I guess or had too much stuff in it. I put the same amount of stuff in it as I do a small "cavers special" Lost Creek. I just know with two wraps and a drawstring closure AND a top opening on a Lost Creek (or similar) my stuff would would not have spilled. I had a newer one with the biner closure on the bottom. I personally liked the older type with the snap buckle closure that you could tighten by drawing in the webbing from the end of the plastic buckle. I suspect with this type I would have been OK. I do stand corrected on one thing. This closure on the SWAYGO has one advantage over the Lost Creek. If you are on your belly head first in steep downward sloping crawl. Gravity is with you in that situation.

[NZcaver]

It takes about a 3 grade level of physics understanding to see that the design is flawed ( in the name of ergonomics).

You say flawed design, I say user error. But like you said, this forum is about opinions and everybody is entitled to express their own. No one pack is going to suit every caver.

[Chads93GT]

My freinds and I use swaygo's almost exclusively due to the amount of river caves and crawling we have to do. swaygo's float and slide right across the cave floor when clipped to your foot. None of us have ever had a pack dump, but we dont overpack our packs. mine looks like its been shot with a shot gun but in the crawl ways with sharp chert, old rimstones, or glass from surface dumps tend to tear it up. Thats ok, the pack glides over everything. If its a dry cave, or drier cave with no crawling I will use my lost creek pack for the side pack sling option.

both are great, but swaygos are awesome for river caving, hands down. I am not worried about the swaygo being waterproof, i like it best because it has a lower coefficient of drag when going through crawls. Tossing cave packs in front of you in crawlways isn't an option. Thats just insanity.

[Cody JW]

NZ, If the upside down orientation is such a good idea how come Lost Creek and ORI and others did not use it. Bottom line-I never had to worry about a "right'" way to close a Lost Creek and in 30 years no dumps. But all of a suddon you have to worry about a "right" way to close a SWAYGO. If not you are on an impromtu scavenger hunt.I just think it is funny that I had no "user error" on a LC. I still say design flaw. Or maybe not design flaw but more attention was paid to ergonomics than physics. Just hope you do not carry anything real important.

[NZcaver]

NZ, If the upside down orientation is such a good idea how come Lost Creek and ORI and others did not use it.

Because the Swaygo is a radically different design from the old LC and OR1 packs, and it's probably patented. Different material, different concept.

Bottom line-I never had to worry about a "right'" way to close a Lost Creek and in 30 years no dumps. But all of a suddon you have to worry about a "right" way to close a SWAYGO.

The roll closure on the Swaygo is the same type used for hundreds of other dry bag designs. Ever use dry bags for canoeing, kayaking, rafting, camping, etc? Same closure. The only real difference is when you wear the Swaygo as a pack, the closure is at the bottom so the clip has the potential to be a single point of failure (dumping the contents out). Now Scott has changed the Swaygo closure from a plastic clip to a carabiner to help minimize this risk.

I just think it is funny that I had no "user error" on a LC. I still say design flaw. Or maybe not design flaw but more attention was paid to ergonomics than physics. Just hope you do not carry anything real important.

Long before Swaygos were invented, I caved with a large dry bag backpack for about year. With the roll closure at the top, it scraped along the ceiling on every crawl/stoop passage. It caught on everything, and was a pain in the butt to carry/drag around in a cave. Pretty soon there were multiple holes in the PVC, mostly at the roll closure. I repaired it several times with AquaSeal, but eventually had to retire the bag. When I first tried the upside-down Swaygo design, I thought it was a stroke of genius. You just have to get used to flipping it upside down to pack/unpack, and obviously make sure you secure it properly. It's not a complicated process.

Incidentally... I've had stuff fall out of my (overstuffed) LC pack a couple of times in a cave before, but I don't blame that on the pack. I've never had anything dump out of my Swaygo. It might happen one day, but if it does it will probably be my own silly fault. I do carry important stuff in the pack from time to time, and it's never been a problem. But now that we've had this discussion, there will probably be impending doom somewhere in the future of my Swaygo.

Bottom line for me - so far I've had no more problems with the closure on my Swaygo than I've had with the closures on my Lost Creek pack. No dumps, no issues with opening and closing, and the straps work great for me. Actually, I much prefer the simple webbing on the Swaygo to the straps on the LC. Those have horrible rusty metal clips, and slide adjusters which dig into the front of my shoulders. Every time I sling my camera case on, the webbing sling gets jammed into those damn LC clips and is a bear to detach again. I really need to come up with another shoulder strap/clip system for the LC. But I guess that's a whole other topic.

[Chads93GT]

You know what sucks about Lost Creek packs? the center of gravity. When you fill the pack up, pull the draw string, clip the cinch buckles to compress the pack down, you end up with the actual upper backstrap buckle attachment, or shoulder slin attachment, almost half way down on the pack. When you wear it, the pack wants to flip upside down and ends up pointin straight out, instead of up and down. Talk about not having a low profile. The swaygo is designed that the shoulder point is as high on the pack as absolutely possible, so you will always have an extremely low profile behind the neck for stooping and crawling.

You cant sling a swaygo as a side pack, so that sucks, but thats not what its designed for. The only way I can see a swaygo opening up on you while walking is if you overpacked it so you couldnt roll it at least 2-3 times, preferrably 3 times.

Besides, the upside down argument is rather silly, as you still have the opening pointing up to open it, and nothing spills out. you simply cant open it while you are wearing it like you can a side slung lost creek pack that is packed lightly.

Both have their plusses and bonuses, but overpacking any pack will result in unintended consiquences, no matter what the product is.

[Cody JW]

Another issue I had with Swaygo was the closure position on your body. When I first used it other Swaygo cavers with me said "you have that on wrong", because I had the biner on the closure facing out ( not up against my back). I turned it around and did not like the way I could feel that on my back , especially in crawls. We were in Blue Springs Tn in the crawl going back to Mega Junction. I do understand that if it faces out it could easily get snagged on things. I just do not like the packs for several reasons, closure location, closure rubbing on my back , no pockets, thinner straps,they do not hold much for how big they look and I do not think from what I have seen with cavers who cave with me that they last long without repair. Just MY opinion. I know anyone who has one will disagree and that is fine (some people like Ford and some like Chevy). Swaygo has done well because I see lots of them out there. Personally I would rather drag my lost creek slinging it front of me in crawls(done it 30 years and I am still alive) from here to the moon and back before I would risk the loss of my load, As big as I am I likely will have to remove any pack to fit tight crawls. I take my pack off before most crawls ( even when maybe i did not have to) because I would rather do it before the crawl as opposed to getting in and doing contorting moves to get it off in a tight area, been there done that and have that T-shirt. For thick guys like me pack slinging in crawls is a given. The spillage I am referring to is not when I open it but when you are wearing it and walking down the passage and if you do not get it "right" you wonder what that noise you just heard was and then you realize your load is all over the breakdown pile you just came across.

[Chads93GT]

Jeff, I have actually never heard anyone say "you have teh swaygo on wrong if you have the closure biner facing out". I simply roll it till its closed then buckle it. depending on how much crap I have, it will be facing one way or another. never thought about it too much.

[Amazingracer]

You know what sucks about Lost Creek packs? the center of gravity. When you fill the pack up, pull the draw string, clip the cinch buckles to compress the pack down, you end up with the actual upper backstrap buckle attachment, or shoulder slin attachment, almost half way down on the pack. When you wear it, the pack wants to flip upside down and ends up pointin straight out, instead of up and down.

I love my Swaygo but would use Lost creek packs when I needed more room, and every single LC did what you mentioned here. It was the most awkward uncomfortable cave trip. However OR1 packs address the issue, Bruce's standard packs have a second shoulder strap attachment poitn a little bit higher than the usual spot for situations where you might end up with a LC pack pointing straight out your back. I got him to make me one with several additional of these straps, let me carry as much or as a little stuff as I want and no crazy LC orientation.

[Chads93GT]

You know what sucks about Lost Creek packs? the center of gravity. When you fill the pack up, pull the draw string, clip the cinch buckles to compress the pack down, you end up with the actual upper backstrap buckle attachment, or shoulder slin attachment, almost half way down on the pack. When you wear it, the pack wants to flip upside down and ends up pointin straight out, instead of up and down.

I love my Swaygo but would use Lost creek packs when I needed more room, and every single LC did what you mentioned here. It was the most awkward uncomfortable cave trip. However OR1 packs address the issue, Bruce's standard packs have a second shoulder strap attachment poitn a little bit higher than the usual spot for situations where you might end up with a LC pack pointing straight out your back. I got him to make me one with several additional of these straps, let me carry as much or as a little stuff as I want and no crazy LC orientation.

Brilliant fix. I'll definately have to buy one from Bruce when my lost creek wears out, or maybe ill just get one anyway and retire the lost creek pack to a gear bag

[NZcaver]

That's a good point about the awkward carry position of an overstuffed LC pack. I might have to add a higher attachment point when I redesign new straps for mine. Years ago I sewed a lightweight pocket on the inside down the length of the back to fit a foam pad. Later I found out Anmar added this feature to some of the LC packs. It's nice to see evolution in action.

[Cody JW]

I have both LC and an OR1 pack, Like them both but the OR1 pack (like the LC) has the webbing with buckles that come across the front , these are too far apart on my OR1.They tend to slide over to the side of the pack in some situations.They just need to be closer like the LC packs. I do like the way OR1 comes with the pad and the outside rack pocket so you can roll down your pack and carry a full size rack at the same time. Also the reflective tape can be a nice feature as well as the outside map pocket. A nice feature to have would be small pockets with velcro closures built near the top inside so you can reach small items easily with out digging through everything.I use OR1 for vertical and a small LC for horizontal.