BMW Hydrogen 7

[fuzzy-hair-man]

Here's the link to the mini I was talking about:
http://www.worldcarfans.com/2060724.006/pml-builds-640hp-electric-mini
640 bhp !
range on battieres is I think about 4 hrs of urban and extra urban driving.
predictions of upto 1000 kms range using batteries and gasoline
gas mileage of 60 - 80 miles per gallon when running on gas.
does 0 - 100km/h (~60mile) in six seconds!

Sort of shows what can be done if car makers wanted to.

[maek]

There were a couple of aggressive statement that I still find objectionable, but overall the reply was more benign than I originally interpreted.

Apologies for giving an inaccurate statement. I asked a farmer I know why he wanted to use corn instead of switchgrass for selling it off for biofuel production, and the reply was that it's because there is no where to get switchgrass manufactured into biofuel, and it was too experimental to bother with. ORNL just got funding for switchgrass studies and for a processing plant this year or last year. If switchgrass for biofuels is in production in your region, great! It isn't in mine.

In the SE legumes have to be planted in the fall which means a big no for growing many fall crops. I haven't been keeping up with the farmer subsidies lately, but I know global forces are against them and small-time farmers don't usually get much from them. And corn isn't so great for the soil because they have shallow roots. (But who cares about soil erosion?) In my little garden plot, I plant the three sisters method but that's not realistic for large scale production.

I understand the concept of methane. I also know that many if not most municipal dumps and waste treatment plants burn it off because it isn't worth the cost to save it. If you have studies to back up the cost effectiveness of manure-to-methane, I'm interested in reading them.

I'm sorry if my point was not clear, but it was that solar panels on your home could power your electric car. I am unaware of passive solar having that capability. Cuts heating costs for your home, could heat your water, but it doesn't do anything for your car.

The solar panels I've seen that power houses would pretty much crush your car.

Okay on the EIS thing, it's true that the TVA is a federal entity, and I've been writing from mostly a local standpoint. However, I used to think that wind turbines were universally bad for birds too, but then I looked up the data on it that I could find and found out I wrong for the most part. In some areas raptor have been found to be especially at risk. Habitat loss is a much bigger player in the reduction of bird populations.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

The solar panels I've seen that power houses would pretty much crush your car.

You don't put them on your car they stay on your house, you plug into your house at a power point and the solar or wind or whatever your house electricity comes from charges your car during the night or anytime it's plugged in. So yes if you were remote enough to be off the grid you would need further power generating facilities ($$$) to keep up with your increased electricity demand, but it is possible.

BTW there are solar panels of reasonable size used for caravans, motor homes, boats, etc so they aren't all enormous.

[maek]

Sorry for the stupid statement. It just made me chuckle to think about the panels on my car. I was hoping to make a correction to the statement as I was actually thinking of older panels I've seen. The ones at Sequatchie Valley Institute in particular are commercial grade and they could have been manufactured up to ten years ago. Newer ones are getting lighter and smaller with efficiency.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I also know that there is research into concentrating the suns rays using dish shaped reflectors, this is used to heat oil? or water which is used to drive a turbine. I think this is probably the technology that future solar farms are looking at and not photovoltaic cells (solar panels).

Not a stupid question, I mean solar racers have solar panels over thier cars, it's just for the moment anyway it's not worthwile lugging the extra weight.

I remember seeing an article on some very infant technology that suggested that in the future it may lead to solar cells were being developed that could be sprayed on like paint! now that would be cool!

[hunter]

The solar panels I've seen that power houses would pretty much crush your car.

Check out Brunton's roll up "panel": http://www.brunton.com/product.php?id=256
Looks like 1mm thick. The problem is not the technology. The problem is the cost which does seem to keep coming down. I'm personally hoping that in 10years there will be a hybrid or electric vehicle with integrated solar. So far though it is just to pricey (except for charging things like a cell or laptop on the go).

Sort of shows what can be done if car makers wanted to.

fuzzy,
I don't understand why people always say this. Toyota, Honda and Ford sell hybrid vehicles and are working on improvements. If they could easily develop a product like that described they would. There is a world of difference between a one time experimental vehicle and a reliable product that will run for 15 years with no major issues. The power train described in the article is basically that proposed for the Volt. The problem is still the battery. An electric car requires a high capacity, high charge/discharge rate, long life battery that is not too heavy. In the article they used a Li-Polymer battery. These things have on the order or 500 charge/discharge cycles before they hit 80% capacity reduction. Great for an experiment but that mini with it's great specs will be dead in less than 5 years because of the battery. A lot of very smart people are working on this problem but it's hasn't been really solved yet and that is the main reason you can't buy an electric Corvette.

I also know that there is research into concentrating the suns rays using dish shaped reflectors,

Wik calls these a "Solar Thermal Electric Power Plant". I don't have the time to check but I think there are two or three of these fully operational in the world (California, New Mexico, Middle East, and Spain I think)

James

[fuzzy-hair-man]

Sort of shows what can be done if car makers wanted to.

fuzzy,
I don't understand why people always say this. Toyota, Honda and Ford sell hybrid vehicles and are working on improvements. If they could easily develop a product like that described they would. There is a world of difference between a one time experimental vehicle and a reliable product that will run for 15 years with no major issues. The power train described in the article is basically that proposed for the Volt. The problem is still the battery. An electric car requires a high capacity, high charge/discharge rate, long life battery that is not too heavy. In the article they used a Li-Polymer battery. These things have on the order or 500 charge/discharge cycles before they hit 80% capacity reduction. Great for an experiment but that mini with it's great specs will be dead in less than 5 years because of the battery. A lot of very smart people are working on this problem but it's hasn't been really solved yet and that is the main reason you can't buy an electric Corvette.

The mini described has some pretty unbelievable performance, just going for a lower performance version would I think yield considerable cost savings, I think it was an exercise to show electric doesn't need to sacrifice performance (a myth that seems to exist). I think the major reason electric is not taken up because it is hard to get people over the idea of longer charge times and a some what limited range. At least in part I think the problem is that marketing electric cars has become difficult and for some reason the blinkers are on and it doesn't seem to be considered as a solution.
If you read the previous link I posted they explain that fuel cells have much further to go before they could be adopted as a cost effective option. The article also talks of Li Ions having a lifetime upto 10 years (it's true to date batteries are considered a consumable item, ~90% of which can be recycled) but batteries are getting better and a hybrid like the mini offers the best of gasoline and electric. The Toyota hybrid batteries are NiMH and I think toyota expect them to last about the 10 years, Li Ion if I remeber correctly should have a longer life and better performance than NiMH and a hybrid is able to look after the batteries better than a pure electric car, so it seems that a ten year life on batteries in a hybrid is not unreasonable, most auto manufacturers seem to consider this the life of the vechile anyway. (I disagree but then I drive cars dating to the 60's)

Economies of scale: like most things the price of an electric car will go down as more and more are manufactured so there is a very good chance that the cost of electric cars coming down to a level comparable with hybrids.

You mention reliablity, the drive train to an electric car is identical to a fuel cell from the fuel cell forward these engines and electronics are very reliable one I have seen is warranted for ~10 years in which period it doesn't require any maintenance other than perhaps to flush a radiator. Electric engines are more reliable than your gasoline engine they are also much more efficent. The rest of the car excluding batteries remains essentially the same for a pure electric car so there should be no reliability problems there that don't exist already (there is probably the potential for batteries to over weight the car as a pure electric could be a couple 100kg heavier than a gasoline car because of batteries). People are building reliable electric cars in thier backyards out of existing donor vechiles and those using the better technology and doing it properly are absolutely reliable so then with all those comprimises imagine what a full blown investment by an auto manufacturer could do?
Hybrids already use a large amounts of the electric components found ina electric car and have additional more complex components than an electric car these have proven reliable even though they are exposed to reliability issues in both the electric and gasoline engines.

As I have said batteries remain a problem but they are improving and hopefully with hybrids advancing large battery technology they will get better and cheaper. it hinges on batteries at this point it terms of range, recharge times, and battery life.

BTW there are already companies(UK) offering plug in conversions to hybrids like the Prius where they add more batteries and the ability to charge off mains power. The problem is that the electric engine isn't (yet) large enough to offer good performance in electric only, it's not that it can't, it can, it's just the design choice that Toyota made given they were designing the Prius NOT to be plugged in to mains power.

PS: Sorry all if I seem particularly argumentitive about this stuff it's something I'm interested in and have looked at a fair bit.

[hunter]

it hinges on batteries at this point it terms of range, recharge times, and battery life.

In general I agree. I was just pointing this out. An experimental car can use high end batteries and does not have to worry about long term performance. As batteries get better I expect we will see more appealing hybrid (or all electric) vehicles.

You mention reliablity, the drive train to an electric car is identical to a fuel cell from the fuel cell forward

Umm, just FYI it was someone else advocating fuel cells. I was just pointing out that electric is not quite a silver bullet (yet).
I'm not really certain what your referring to here. A prius uses two power sources to turn a CVT which then goes into a fairly normal drive train with electric breaking. I agree that this is a reliable system.
The Mini used a totally electric drive train with motors in the wheels. As far as I know the Volt concept car is the only commercial vehicle to use this system and it has never been sold. I personally believe that this is a great system and hope it will take off. I don't believe that it will be totally reliable w/o some major work. The electronics involved in balancing power between 2 or 4 wheels on the fly are not trivial.

An interesting side thought is that car companies employ a large number of expert mechanical engineers in drive train design. The all electric drive train will require a major shift in expertise.

James

[Teresa]

The solar panels I've seen that power houses would pretty much crush your car.

Check out Brunton's roll up "panel": http://www.brunton.com/product.php?id=256
Looks like 1mm thick. The problem is not the technology. The problem is the cost which does seem to keep coming down. I'm personally hoping that in 10years there will be a hybrid or electric vehicle with integrated solar. So far though it is just to pricey (except for charging things like a cell or laptop on the go).

You can power a whole lot more than just a cell phone or laptop off one of the Brunton rollups. How about camp incandescent lights for week AND two laptops AND two cellphones. Not a car, yet, unfortunately.


You know, why haven't all the electric car people out there looked at diesel-electric locomotives? That's OLD technology. (They aren't diesel engines--they are diesel which drive a generator, and the electric drives wheel motors. They've even got DE locos which now are augmenting with solar and regenerative braking.


I still think thinking like a train is the answer. How about electric highways, where the power source is in the roadway, and you switch on and switch off, with your gas/diesel hybrid for the last X miles off the electrified road? Another OLD idea-- The Roads Must Roll, by R.A. Heinlein.

Too bad I can't spell enguneer...and all the engineers I think about wear pinstripe hats.

[Nico]

According to Gale Banks (yeah the guy from Banks Power) Diesel is the next step, before electric/hybrid hydrogen or anything else

[fuzzy-hair-man]

You mention reliablity, the drive train to an electric car is identical to a fuel cell from the fuel cell forward

Umm, just FYI it was someone else advocating fuel cells. I was just pointing out that electric is not quite a silver bullet (yet).
I'm not really certain what your referring to here. A prius uses two power sources to turn a CVT which then goes into a fairly normal drive train with electric breaking. I agree that this is a reliable system.
The Mini used a totally electric drive train with motors in the wheels. As far as I know the Volt concept car is the only commercial vehicle to use this system and it has never been sold. I personally believe that this is a great system and hope it will take off. I don't believe that it will be totally reliable w/o some major work. The electronics involved in balancing power between 2 or 4 wheels on the fly are not trivial.

Fair enough, I'm not very familiar with the balancing of drive to four seperate electric engines, I thought you were refering to electric engines in general which are reliable. About the fuel cell thing I was trying to point out that the alternative technology (fuel cells) is dependant on much the same technology as electric and that if fuel cells are considered a reliable alternative (batteries vrs fuel cell aside) then so must electric.
Not sure that the power balancing will be all that much of a leap from traditional ABS or traction control systems except braking and traction control are both through the one system (not that I know anything about it).

RE the hybrid thing, most electric conversions either do away with the gearbox (reverse can be achieved though electronics) or drive a conventional gearbox the same way as a gasoline engine but they mostly don't need to use 1st gear because the torque from a electric engine is better at lower revs. The CVT in a hybrid is the new bit and the least proven bit in the drive train IMO.

Although that does bring up a hole in my argument the higher torque at low revs could cause some reliablity problems. Generally if you match the gasoline engine to a similar electric engine then those torque figures will appear higher up the rev range, I haven't read anything about this causing problems though. The electrics should have less wear on things like the clutch and syncromeshes because there is less need to change gears.

An interesting side thought is that car companies employ a large number of expert mechanical engineers in drive train design. The all electric drive train will require a major shift in expertise.

I'm not nessicarily sure that every thing will go to a motor in each wheel drive train although it does promise to save space, one of the good things is a more powerful engine doesn't seem to take up correspondingly larger amounts of space or weight so having 4 motors where one might do would seem to make the car heavier and take up more room. (not that inside the wheels is going to be used for much else if you are able to eliminate brakes)

It will be interesting to see what happens that's for sure.
If we did go electric, one of consequences would be that there would be less requirement for mechanics and if everyone was recharging from the grid less requirement for petrol type stations. Those are some pretty large work forces that need to shift to other industries and car manufacturers who are not going to be making much out of engine and perhaps transmition parts. I imagine whatever the outcome considerable changes are in the pipeline.

I haven't read too much about the Volt seen it on TV science documentries a couple of times but that's about all... have to look it up.

[Teresa]

You know, everyone keeps talking about batteries.

How about a solar power plant which charges on the go? Yes, you still need the batteries for storage, and likely, due to current solar cell efficiencies, you still need the overnight top off at the house, and for night driving. But solar cells aren't just powered by the sun...anyone who has ever had a flashlight and a dead solar calculator kept in a drawer knows this.

You could keep going and going and going... driving on ambient light. Now, that would be COOL! especially since it would charge just parked in the sun. (even some in the shade).

Wow. I think I'm onto something here.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

An interesting report on the GreenHouse Gas impact of Plug in Hybrid Electric VVechile adoption under different adoption levels and different electricity generation senarios. Interesting reading....
http://www.epri-reports.org/Otherdocs/PHEVPressRelease_final.pdf

[hunter]

An interesting report on the GreenHouse Gas impact of Plug in Hybrid Electric VVechile adoption under different adoption levels and different electricity generation senarios. Interesting reading....

Umm, was there supposed to be a link with this? I can't see one in my browser.

I'm not very familiar with the balancing of drive to four seperate electric engines

Not sure that the power balancing will be all that much of a leap from traditional ABS or traction control systems except braking and traction control are both through the one system (not that I know anything about it).

I'm not a high energy electrical engineer but I've discussed the issues with a couple. The main issue is actually power balance on turns. In almost all cars today this is done via the differential. The tricky part is that we are talking something like a minimum of 25hp per wheel. That works out to 18643 watts per wheel. That's a tough problem.

I totally agree on electric engines being highly reliable. I understand the diesel -> electric -> wheels argument but I "think" the efficiency loss in the added step offsets any gains except the regular breaking energy recovery. This "diesel -> electric -> power" system is used in trains, ice-breakers(some), and very large construction equipment. I believe the main reason for this was alluded to by fuzzy, electric engines have awesome torque and starting a long train takes an enormous torque as does pushing dirt around. Ice-breakers use this engine system because if the screw catches on a piece of ice it can destroy a mechanical drive-train where electric motors can be built to handle a sudden stop.

You can power a whole lot more than just a cell phone or laptop off one of the Brunton rollups. How about camp incandescent lights for week AND two laptops AND two cellphones. Not a car, yet, unfortunately.

Yeah and it probably never will w/o batteries. Check the watts to hp conversion. What I'm hoping for in a place like the southwest or Florida is a car you can do 20-40 miles on each day if you park in a sunny spot and let it charge most of the time.

James

[fuzzy-hair-man]

An interesting report on the GreenHouse Gas impact of Plug in Hybrid Electric VVechile adoption under different adoption levels and different electricity generation senarios. Interesting reading....

Umm, was there supposed to be a link with this? I can't see one in my browser.

forgot to add the link, it's there now.

I'm not a high energy electrical engineer but I've discussed the issues with a couple. The main issue is actually power balance on turns. In almost all cars today this is done via the differential. The tricky part is that we are talking something like a minimum of 25hp per wheel. That works out to 18643 watts per wheel. That's a tough problem.

You might have to explain to me a bit more.... as far as I knew traction control and ABS (not mechanical Limited Slip Diff) calculated the speed of each wheel and based off the position of the steering wheel worked out which wheel if any was slipping and modulated braking effort on that wheel. Curiously I believe that braking also worked for traction control (even though you want to accelerate) because a differential will transfer power to the wheel that slips if you put the brakes on the wheel you detect slipping on it will transfer power to the other wheel(s). To me it wouldn't be such a stretch to change the braking signal to a signal to each electric motor telling it how fast or slow it should be going.

I totally agree on electric engines being highly reliable. I understand the diesel -> electric -> wheels argument but I "think" the efficiency loss in the added step offsets any gains except the regular breaking energy recovery.

From what I understand yes and no, the diesel or petrol engine is the most inefficient part of the system and where most of the energy will be lost, battery charging and dis-charging are pretty efficient AFFAIK. The gain is that diesel and petrol engines are most efficient when they are run at a constant single speed and the revs that lead to thier best efficientcy. If you have a petrol or diesel charging your batteries it can run happily away at it's optimum speed and get it's best efficentcy. The petrol or diesel engine is only there to solve the limited range of the batteries so hopefully in most trips (commuting) it will not be used I think they can also be used to look after the state of the batteries to increase thier life.
OR are you saying it would be more efficient to share the drive system and have the petrol or diesel drive the wheels more directly? In which case I agree but suspect the losses in charging the battery are small compared to the inefficeintcies of the petrol or desiel engine. I compared the mini I linked to earlier (gas mileage figures) and a Prius and they are reasonably comparable, and I'd suspect the mini is heavier than a Prius.
(The mini says 65 - 80 mpg(petrol only) and the Prius is 55mpg on a city/highway mix.) The Pruis uses it's electric engine to assist so the petrol engine will not be running at peak effecientcy the whole time AFAIK....not sure though.