Global Warming NOT caused by CO2

Topics and issues of interest to cavers which are not related to caving. No political or religious discussions, please.

Moderator: Moderators

Postby hydrology_joe » Mar 22, 2007 1:46 pm

Is an article from NASA published in a peer-review scientific journal good enough evidence for a sun-climate connection?

NASA Finds Sun-Climate Connection in Old Nile Records
March 19, 2007

Long-term climate records are a key to understanding how Earth's climate changed in the past and how it may change in the future. Direct measurements of light energy emitted by the sun, taken by satellites and other modern scientific techniques, suggest variations in the sun's activity influence Earth's long-term climate. However, there were no measured climate records of this type until the relatively recent scientific past.

Scientists have traditionally relied upon indirect data gathering methods to study climate in the Earth's past, such as drilling ice cores in Greenland and Antarctica. Such samples of accumulated snow and ice drilled from deep within ice sheets or glaciers contain trapped air bubbles whose composition can provide a picture of past climate conditions. Now, however, a group of NASA and university scientists has found a convincing link between long-term solar and climate variability in a unique and unexpected source: directly measured ancient water level records of the Nile, Earth's longest river.

Alexander Ruzmaikin and Joan Feynman of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., together with Dr. Yuk Yung of the California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, Calif., have analyzed Egyptian records of annual Nile water levels collected between 622 and 1470 A.D. at Rawdah Island in Cairo. These records were then compared to another well-documented human record from the same time period: observations of the number of auroras reported per decade in the Northern Hemisphere. Auroras are bright glows in the night sky that happen when mass is rapidly ejected from the sun's corona, or following solar flares. They are an excellent means of tracking variations in the sun's activity.

Feynman said that while ancient Nile and auroral records are generally "spotty," that was not the case for the particular 850-year period they studied.

"Since the time of the pharaohs, the water levels of the Nile were accurately measured, since they were critically important for agriculture and the preservation of temples in Egypt," she said. "These records are highly accurate and were obtained directly, making them a rare and unique resource for climatologists to peer back in time."

A similarly accurate record exists for auroral activity during the same time period in northern Europe and the Far East. People there routinely and carefully observed and recorded auroral activity, because auroras were believed to portend future disasters, such as droughts and the deaths of kings.

"A great deal of modern scientific effort has gone into collecting these ancient auroral records, inter-comparing them and evaluating their accuracy," Ruzmaikin said. "They have been successfully used by aurora experts around the world to study longer time scale variations."

The researchers found some clear links between the sun's activity and climate variations. The Nile water levels and aurora records had two somewhat regularly occurring variations in common - one with a period of about 88 years and the second with a period of about 200 years.

The researchers said the findings have climate implications that extend far beyond the Nile River basin.

"Our results characterize not just a small region of the upper Nile, but a much more extended part of Africa," said Ruzmaikin. "The Nile River provides drainage for approximately 10 percent of the African continent. Its two main sources - Lake Tana in Ethiopia and Lake Victoria in Tanzania, Uganda and Kenya - are in equatorial Africa. Since Africa's climate is interrelated to climate variability in the Indian and Atlantic Oceans, these findings help us better understand climate change on a global basis."

So what causes these cyclical links between solar variability and the Nile? The authors suggest that variations in the sun's ultraviolet energy cause adjustments in a climate pattern called the Northern Annular Mode, which affects climate in the atmosphere of the Northern Hemisphere during the winter. At sea level, this mode becomes the North Atlantic Oscillation, a large-scale seesaw in atmospheric mass that affects how air circulates over the Atlantic Ocean. During periods of high solar activity, the North Atlantic Oscillation's influence extends to the Indian Ocean. These adjustments may affect the distribution of air temperatures, which subsequently influence air circulation and rainfall at the Nile River's sources in eastern equatorial Africa. When solar activity is high, conditions are drier, and when it is low, conditions are wetter.

Study findings were recently published in the Journal of Geophysical Research.
What part of "Shall not be infringed" don't you understand?
User avatar
Frequent Poster
Posts: 92
Joined: Sep 16, 2005 2:42 pm
Location: Topeka, KS

Postby Mark620 » Mar 31, 2007 8:07 am

erebus wrote:Here's one of the scientists who appeared in the show, saying his views were misrepresented, and he does not agree with the premise of the film:
In the part of the "Swindle" film where I am describing the fact that the ocean tends to expel carbon dioxide where it is warm, and to absorb it where it is cold, my intent was to explain that warming the ocean could be dangerous---because it is such a gigantic reservoir of carbon. By its placement in the film, it appears that I am saying that since carbon dioxide exists in the ocean in such large quantities, human influence must not be very important --- diametrically opposite to the point I was making --- which is that global warming is both real and threatening in many different ways, some unexpected.
. . .
Channel 4 now says they were making a film in a series of "polemics". There is nothing in the communication we had (much of it on the telephone or with the film crew on the day they were in Boston) that suggested they were making a film that was one-sided, anti-educational, and misleading. I took them at face value---clearly a great error. I knew I had no control over the actual content, but it never occurred to me that I was dealing with people who already had a reputation for distortion and exaggeration.
He also responded directly to the producers in a letter.

i did a whois on that site

Domain ID:D105219760-LROR
Created On:19-Nov-2004 16:39:03 UTC
Last Updated On:30-Oct-2005 21:10:46 UTC
Expiration Date:19-Nov-2007 16:39:03 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:eNom, Inc. (R39-LROR)
Registrant ID:B133AE74B8066012
Registrant Name:Betsy Ensley
Registrant Organization:Environmental Media Services
Registrant Street1:1320 18th St, NW
Registrant Street2:5th Floor
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Washington
Registrant State/Province:DC
Registrant Postal Code:20036
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.2024636670
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Admin ID:B133AE74B8066012
Admin Name:Betsy Ensley
Admin Organization:Environmental Media Services
Admin Street1:1320 18th St, NW
Admin Street2:5th Floor
Admin Street3:
Admin City:Washington
Admin State/Province:DC
Admin Postal Code:20036
Admin Country:US
Admin Phone:+1.2024636670
Admin Phone Ext.:
Admin FAX:
Admin FAX Ext.:
Tech ID:B133AE74B8066012
Tech Name:Betsy Ensley
Tech Organization:Environmental Media Services
Tech Street1:1320 18th St, NW
Tech Street2:5th Floor
Tech Street3:
Tech City:Washington
Tech State/Province:DC
Tech Postal Code:20036
Tech Country:US
Tech Phone:+1.2024636670
Tech Phone Ext.:
Tech FAX:
Tech FAX Ext.:
Name Server:NS227.PAIR.COM
Name Server:NS0000.NS0.COM

a quick google search on betsy ensley turns up some interesting info as to what else she is involved in, and
probably in trouble now also after this letter to the IRS
"People who really believe that global warming leads us to a doomsday should be treated as mentally ill." Quote : Luboš Motl
User avatar
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
Posts: 227
Joined: Sep 14, 2005 6:58 pm
Location: <1/4 mile from: Secret Cave, Putnam Co., TN
NSS #: 55638
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Cave Owners Club _ I own Caves

Postby hank moon » Mar 31, 2007 10:18 am

Global warming: I don't care whether "it" exists or not.
God: Ditto.

However, I do care about reducing pollution, energy consumption, human misery, etc. I don't need GW or God to influence my thoughts or actions either way - so there.

"Everything is permissible for me" — but not everything is beneficial.
1 Corinthians 6:12

Paul wrote some good stuff.



> opinion expressed in this post is mine, not Petzl's <

Global warming: secular religion for the 21st century.
User avatar
hank moon
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
Posts: 610
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 9:52 am
Location: Salt Lake City

Postby Teresa » Mar 31, 2007 11:41 am

Illinois Caver wrote:I have an interesting wrinkle...

What about the increased exposure of limestone to surface and subsurface water?

How does that affect the CO2 content? hmmmm......

That was the entire point of my post at (about halfway down the page.)

There are three inputs to this issue:

1) Energy coming in (sun/atmospheric transparency)

2) CO2 being trapped (cloudy atmosphere/sequestration in the ocean, forests, rock deposition)

3) Trapped CO2 being excessively released at increasing rates (offgassing of the oceans due to increasing heat, burning of trapped CO2 (trees, coal, fossil fuels), controlling emissions of making cement from limestone.

1) Short of putting up a sunscreen, which some have proposed, we can't do much about the sun. We could do something about atmospheric transparency--remember the clear skies for the 4 days after 9/11? Most people don't want to go that far.

2) Cloudy skies can be addressed by industry and vehicle emissions. Few people alive today remember the soot-smogged air if the turn of the twentieth century from coal furnaces, when streetlights were on at noon. We've come a long way in reducing burning fuel emissions, and still have far to go-- but we're working on it. This isn't just CO2-- but all sorts of stuff in the air. Some research is being done on using forest/grassland CO2 mitigation, and even solid (dolostone) CO2 sequestration. Deep earth injection of CO2 gas has been proposed, but control of huge amounts of CO2 after injection is problematical.

3) Items in point three are things which we can affect already, more or less. There usually are three ways to do anything: the quality way, the cheap way, and the best way which incorporates both quality and economy. If we can do things to help clean up what we've messed up, or not mess up a working ecosystem in the first place, and still accomplish our aims, why not?

Anything else is just greed and poor form.
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
Posts: 1413
Joined: Dec 31, 2005 9:06 pm

Postby Illinois Caver » Apr 1, 2007 2:52 pm

Sorry Teresa,

Missed the post.

I guess my point was "how does the calcium carbonate exposure fit into the grand scheme of it?" (I'm playing devil's advocate).

Limestone does act as a defacto CO2 storage and hints at times when the environment was warmer. So, is there a point when the CO2 begins to decrease in the atmosphere due to the formation of limestone? If so, when is that point reached?

Just trying to drum up some more discussion... :caver:

Troy J. Simpson
Near Normal Grotto
NSS #45667RL
User avatar
Illinois Caver
Frequent Poster
Posts: 63
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 10:14 am
Location: Watseka, IL
Name: Troy Simpson
NSS #: 45667
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Near Normal Grotto

Postby erebus » Apr 2, 2007 10:42 am

Mark620, what's your point - that the owner of has other interests that are in opposition to Bush? How does that affect whether the scientist in question was misrepresented in the TV show?

Also, your "this letter" link doesn't work.
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
Posts: 203
Joined: Sep 25, 2005 4:54 pm
NSS #: 6752

Postby Teresa » Apr 2, 2007 12:26 pm

Illinois Caver wrote:Sorry Teresa,

Missed the post.

No biggie.

I guess my point was "how does the calcium carbonate exposure fit into the grand scheme of it?" (I'm playing devil's advocate).

Limestone does act as a defacto CO2 storage and hints at times when the environment was warmer. So, is there a point when the CO2 begins to decrease in the atmosphere due to the formation of limestone? If so, when is that point reached?

I'm not sure what sort of CO2 mass balance exists globally between terrestrial erosion (even silicate rocks like granites and basalts liberate CO2 in decomposition) and CO2 uptake forming as limestone. Much (not all) of the Paleozoic limestone formed either in shallow, saline seas (200-300 ft depth) and an awful lot of that formed as carbonate coral/bryzoan reef structures (some, of course, like oolitic limestone, or coquina (crushed shell) limestone and some crystalline limestones did not).

The CO2 has to be dissolved in the water for it to be taken in by the corals and coral-like animals. Long before anyone was yelling global warming, ocean biologists have been reporting on the deaths of large reef structures, either from pollution (many of the reef animals are filter feeders, and need clean, but nutrient-available water) or from increases in ocean temperature. I remember reading somewhere (perhaps Cousteau) that the reefs were the lungs of the ocean. So, we can not count on the reefs to save us.

CO2 absorption in water depends on temperature and depth. There is a level (called the carbonate compensation zone) below which the ocean has so much dissolved CO2 it becomes acidic enough to dissolve/ not precipitate limestone. Therefore, historically, in times of shallow seas, more CO2 would be available to precipitate.

Want more limestone? Flood Florida...which the global warmers think we are in the way to doing...
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
Posts: 1413
Joined: Dec 31, 2005 9:06 pm

Postby Cheryl Jones » Jun 20, 2007 11:33 pm

Read the sunspots
The mud at the bottom of B.C. fjords reveals that solar output drives climate change - and that we should prepare now for dangerous global cooling
Published: Wednesday, June 20, 2007


Climate-change research is now literally exploding with new findings. Since the 1997 Kyoto Protocol, the field has had more research than in all previous years combined and the discoveries are completely shattering the myths. For example, I and the first-class scientists I work with are consistently finding excellent correlations between the regular fluctuations in the brightness of the sun and earthly climate. This is not surprising. The sun and the stars are the ultimate source of all energy on the planet.


My research team began to collect and analyze core samples from the bottom of deep Western Canadian fjords. The regions in which we chose to conduct our research, Effingham Inlet on the West Coast of Vancouver Island, and in 2001, sounds in the Belize-Seymour Inlet complex on the mainland coast of British Columbia, were perfect for this sort of work. The topography of these fjords is such that they contain deep basins that are subject to little water transfer from the open ocean and so water near the bottom is relatively stagnant and very low in oxygen content. As a consequence, the floors of these basins are mostly lifeless and sediment layers build up year after year, undisturbed over millennia.


Our finding of a direct correlation between variations in the brightness of the sun and earthly climate indicators (called "proxies") is not unique. Hundreds of other studies, using proxies from tree rings in Russia's Kola Peninsula to water levels of the Nile, show exactly the same thing: The sun appears to drive climate change.

However, there was a problem. Despite this clear and repeated correlation, the measured variations in incoming solar energy were, on their own, not sufficient to cause the climate changes we have observed in our proxies. In addition, even though the sun is brighter now than at any time in the past 8,000 years, the increase in direct solar input is not calculated to be sufficient to cause the past century's modest warming on its own. There had to be an amplifier of some sort for the sun to be a primary driver of climate change.


Solar scientists predict that, by 2020, the sun will be starting into its weakest Schwabe solar cycle of the past two centuries, likely leading to unusually cool conditions on Earth. Beginning to plan for adaptation to such a cool period, one which may continue well beyond one 11-year cycle, as did the Little Ice Age, should be a priority for governments. It is global cooling, not warming, that is the major climate threat to the world, especially Canada. As a country at the northern limit to agriculture in the world, it would take very little cooling to destroy much of our food crops, while a warming would only require that we adopt farming techniques practiced to the south of us.

Read the full article!
User avatar
Cheryl Jones
Global Moderator
Posts: 2469
Joined: Sep 2, 2005 11:53 pm
Location: Virginia
Name: Cheryl Jones
NSS #: 14479 FE OS
Primary Grotto Affiliation: BATS

Postby Mark620 » Jun 22, 2007 9:05 pm

where did the 16 trillion gallons of missing water from Lake Superior go? Thats enough for everyone on earth to have 2000 gallons(or something like that)...

We need to control Sunspots and solar activity more than CO2 output...
"People who really believe that global warming leads us to a doomsday should be treated as mentally ill." Quote : Luboš Motl
User avatar
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
Posts: 227
Joined: Sep 14, 2005 6:58 pm
Location: <1/4 mile from: Secret Cave, Putnam Co., TN
NSS #: 55638
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Cave Owners Club _ I own Caves

Postby Teresa » Jun 23, 2007 2:00 pm

The one constant of every side of the climate change argument is the need for 'more research'.

Follow the money, and I can just about tell you the conclusions of any study, which is that academicians need more studies....

"Everybody talks about the weather but no one does anything about it." --S L Clemens.
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
Posts: 1413
Joined: Dec 31, 2005 9:06 pm

Postby Cheryl Jones » Jun 25, 2007 5:58 pm

Scientist Implicates Worms in Global Warming :doh:

Jim Frederickson, the research director at the Composting Association has called for data on worms and composting to be re-examined after a German study found that worms produce greenhouse gases 290 times more potent than carbon dioxide.

Worms are being used commercially to compost organic material and is in preference to putting it into the landfill. The German government wants 45% of all waste to be composted by 2015.

"Everybody... thinks they can do no harm but they contribute to global warming. People are looking into alternative waste treatments but we have to make sure that we are not jumping from the frying pan into the fire," said Frederickson.
User avatar
Cheryl Jones
Global Moderator
Posts: 2469
Joined: Sep 2, 2005 11:53 pm
Location: Virginia
Name: Cheryl Jones
NSS #: 14479 FE OS
Primary Grotto Affiliation: BATS

Postby Sean Ryan » Jun 27, 2007 10:32 am

Well, that explains the Dune planet.
Sean Ryan
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
Posts: 222
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 4:17 pm
Location: Jersey City, NJ

Postby Cheryl Jones » Aug 31, 2007 10:18 pm

Oldest strains of DNA found in Greenland

NUUK, Greenland, July 5 (UPI) -- The oldest known DNA strains found in frozen mud at the base of Greenland's ice sheet may force a rethinking of the island's ecological past, scientists say.

The discovery also could change current predictions about how global warming will affect the island's ice, National Geographic reported Thursday.

Most of the Danish-owned island is covered with an ice sheet up to 2 miles thick. But the DNA -- genetic material from pine trees and other organisms that lived as far back as 800,000 years ago -- speak of a much more verdant and vibrant past.

Hundreds of thousands of years ago, southern Greenland had thriving forests similar to those in northern Canada today......

Read on
Copyright 2007 by United Press International. All Rights Reserved.
User avatar
Cheryl Jones
Global Moderator
Posts: 2469
Joined: Sep 2, 2005 11:53 pm
Location: Virginia
Name: Cheryl Jones
NSS #: 14479 FE OS
Primary Grotto Affiliation: BATS

BBC Climate scepticism: The top 10

Postby Wayne Harrison » Nov 13, 2007 12:14 pm


What are some of the reasons why "climate sceptics" dispute the evidence that human activities such as industrial emissions of greenhouse gases and deforestation are bringing potentially dangerous changes to the Earth's climate?

As the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) finalises its landmark report for 2007, we look at 10 of the arguments most often made against the IPCC consensus, and some of the counter-arguments made by scientists who agree with the IPCC.

User avatar
Wayne Harrison
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
Posts: 2382
Joined: Aug 30, 2005 5:29 pm
Location: Pine, Colorado
NSS #: 18689 FE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: unaffiliated

Postby BrianC » Nov 15, 2007 1:35 pm

Cheryl Jones wrote:Scientist Implicates Worms in Global Warming :doh:

I new someone would find the real reason for global warming! so now if we could cover all the land masses with salt water we could get rid of those nasty worms! :banana:
User avatar
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
Posts: 2061
Joined: Oct 2, 2006 2:34 pm
Location: up on this here mountain


Return to Open Talk Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users