Question for those who are still reading/writing to CaveChat

Topics and issues of interest to cavers which are not related to caving. No political or religious discussions, please.

Moderator: Moderators

Re: Question for those who are still reading/writing to Cave

Postby tncaver » Mar 23, 2016 7:14 am

Ernie, when you ask a question on a public forum you had better be prepared for replies you might not like. This topic is also in the Open Talk section of Cave
Chat. The policies of former NSS president (Gordon Birkhimer), directly influenced cave access and closure issues and was a direct cause of membership loss as well as a reductions of reading/writing on Cavechat. Fewer members equals fewer writers. However, I do believe that Facebook had much to do with the loss of interest on this forum which is a shame as Cave Chat is still a great forum and is also available to the general public to read even if they do not join or post. Today the NSS is a useful organization that actually promotes all of it's goals to include actual caving and exploration. Peter Youngbaer did a wonderful job as WNS liason. He tried to remain neutral while presenting as much information on the WNS situation as possible. WNS also caused cave closures which I am
sure influenced many people to quit caving. I also congratulate Bill Putnam for bringing the NSS back from the "brink" that Gordon Birkhimer led the NSS toward. Out of line or not, history is a part of the story. Today's NSS is a much better organization than it was during the early WNS years. I hope all of those folks who have left the organization will consider rejoining if they can afford it and begin reading and writing on Cave Chat again regardless.
tncaver
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2624
Joined: May 17, 2007 7:03 pm
  

Re: Question for those who are still reading/writing to Cave

Postby GroundquestMSA » Mar 23, 2016 5:47 pm

It may be interesting too to think about the individuals that used to make Cavechat run. As with most everything, a relatively few active users were the bulk of the traffic. So, besides NZ, why do Todd Webb and Todd Hancock and Brian Connors and Steve Brewer and Evan Ghering and Andy Armstrong and Jeff Bartlett and Chad McCain and Bill Putnam and a handful of others not use this forum anymore? My guess is that the most of them "grew out of it". The arguments were fun, and a few really interesting issues were exhaustively discussed, but now they're done. This is ok. As I said earlier, the only bad part is that a new individual who pops up asking questions isn't going to get the benefit of the combined centuries of experience that used to speak here.

I cannot understand the effects of WNS and the clumsy running of the NSS on caver activity. Neither WNS nor anything the NSS has ever done or ever will do can have much effect on my own caving. I accept that the story is much different for others. But I do not think that the mass abandonment of this forum is reflective of a comparable abandonment of caving.
User avatar
GroundquestMSA
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1343
Joined: May 5, 2011 1:32 pm
  

Question for those who are still reading/writing to CaveChat

Postby Ernie Coffman » Mar 23, 2016 6:31 pm

TN, I just asked a simple question and just didn't expect all the changes in answers to that question. No problem on accepting other's responses, although you're assuming I don't like their answers. Wrong! Everyone has their own opinion, that's all, even though it has kind of run rampant, but as you indicated that's something to expect. As for the NSS President you brought up, I try and forget about him, thinking you meant someone else that I couldn't understand. Guess my thinking back then, on who was when and where got mixed-up, which is easy to do. Yeah, I read you loud and clear on Gordon. And, I agree with you, wholeheartedly on Peter's responses to WNS and believe FB had a lot of influence on folks going to that media. No problem in that understanding. I was just wondering if others thought along that line, also; and, was wondering why the big change to that system. I had to chuckle on half of your last sentence, though. Don't get me wrong, for I agree with you on the first half, but just can't understand the latter part about "whether they can afford it." I still maintain that the price of the NSS is quite low for our organization, but it all depends on where one puts their buck$, as we all know. Beer? Movies? Dope? :yikes:

Thanks for straightening me out on who was the president back then, for it saves me a little research. :clap:
Ernie Coffman
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sep 10, 2005 12:07 am
Location: Grants Pass, Oregon
  

Re: Question for those who are still reading/writing to Cave

Postby MUD » Mar 23, 2016 6:40 pm

:big grin: Hey I'm still here lol! :waving: Cavechat is not what it used to be as caving is not what it used to be. Society is different too as FaceBook and the stupidphone have most people addicted to them. It's hard to go on a trip these days without seeing a GoPro and phones everywhere. Lol, you're not home more than an hour and there you are all over Bragbook because someone just couldn't wait to post and see how many 'likes' they'll get. And they never ask, they just post lol. :laughing:

So I still lurk here and will respond if prodded lol. :grin:


:cavingrocks:
MUD
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1242
Joined: Mar 15, 2006 11:28 pm
Primary Grotto Affiliation: None
  

Question for those who are still reading/writing to CaveChat

Postby Ernie Coffman » Mar 23, 2016 7:28 pm

Roger-dodger, MUD. Read you loud and clear. Glad to learn that we think a like. Isn't it sad to see folks walking down the streets/roads with "stupidphone" bent over, not knowing that they almost walked into a car...or another person? Ah, yes!
Ernie Coffman
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sep 10, 2005 12:07 am
Location: Grants Pass, Oregon
  

Re: Question for those who are still reading/writing to Cave

Postby MUD » Mar 23, 2016 8:06 pm

Those phones are ridiculous! I don't think most that have them realize how much time they spend on them. Everywhere I go people are staring at that screen. Family's rarely interact with one another while eating out or elsewhere as their phones have more important stuff lol. I went to my son's Spring band concert a few nights ago at his school and was amazed at the number of people staring at that little screen while those kids played their hearts out. :down: Sad. I bet they took a few pics and maybe some video for Facebook though. LOL, they need a 'like' somehow. :rofl:
MUD
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1242
Joined: Mar 15, 2006 11:28 pm
Primary Grotto Affiliation: None
  

Question for those who are still reading/writing to CaveChat

Postby Ernie Coffman » Mar 23, 2016 11:07 pm

Here's a little research for you, that I just happened to see in Bottom Line:
"...more than half of college students admit they are addicted to their cell phones. Female college students average 10 hours a day on their phones. Males average almost eight hours. Top activities include texting (94.6 minutes/day) and sending e-mail (48.5 minutes).
This was a study of college students led by researchers at Hankamer School of Business, Baylor University, Waco, Texas." Now that's really out of caving discussion, :off topic: but definitely responding to your comments, so... :funny post:
Ernie Coffman
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sep 10, 2005 12:07 am
Location: Grants Pass, Oregon
  

Re: Question for those who are still reading/writing to Cave

Postby VACaver » Mar 24, 2016 10:06 am

I think, like many other forums, people get tired of other posters dumping on them for asking a question or bringing up a topic. We've seen it before and will see it again...the Internet Tough Guy that just has to belittle others over their opinion, gear choice, question, etc.
User avatar
VACaver
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Sep 25, 2005 5:31 pm
Location: SW Virginia
Name: Patrick
  

Re: Question for those who are still reading/writing to Cave

Postby MUD » Mar 24, 2016 6:52 pm

GroundquestMSA wrote:Neither WNS nor anything the NSS has ever done or ever will do can have much effect on my own caving.


:big grin: I'm with ya Jonah!
MUD
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1242
Joined: Mar 15, 2006 11:28 pm
Primary Grotto Affiliation: None
  

Re: Question for those who are still reading/writing to Cave

Postby submassabielle » Mar 29, 2016 10:08 am

I still check the forum from time to time, but have not really wanted to post much precisely because things seemed a little slow at times and I didn't want my post just to sit there for several months. Also, I think the phrase "grew out of it" is very apt. I found the forum VERY helpful when I started caving and also found it to be a great way to remain informed about the caving community during times when I could go caving less frequently. As I have started caving more and interacting with other cavers more in person, I have felt the appeal of a forum wane. This has been further facilitated by the fact that there are so few new posts on cave chat. I think, psychologically, there is a positive reinforcement experienced when you go to a site and find something new and interesting to read. This keeps you coming back. But when you repeatedly return to a site and find that there are almost no new posts, or that they are not particularly interesting, the activity becomes less satisfying and you simply start to forget about it. Moreover, very few of the people I cave with read cave chat, I kinda find it embarrassing to admit that I sometimes need to get a virtual caving fix by reading a web forum!
submassabielle
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Mar 18, 2012 8:49 pm
NSS #: 63943
  

Re: Question for those who are still reading/writing to Cave

Postby PYoungbaer » Apr 3, 2016 7:39 pm

Hey, I still look at and occasionally post on Cave Chat, and jeez, one even finds nice comments about oneself! Thanks, Ernie and Beerlover. The next cold one's on me, whenever I see you!

WNS is still an issue, the latest news from Washington State a clear case in point. It's an odd find, for sure. While the Center for Biological Diversity's Mollie Matteson does her typical premature jumping to conclusions, the actual scientists are testing the bat and fungus genetically to see if it's a subspecies (or maybe a transplant) of the Little Brown bat (typical in the Northwest), and to see if the fungus is the eastern U.S. type or the asian version.

Some good info on Washington State Little Brown bats in this 2013 article. Largest known maternity roost is @ 1000 Little browns (plus @2000 of the related Yuma myotis, which some researchers call the same species).

However, winter hibernacula are virtually unknown, with roosts cited in the article as solitary bats or very small groupings.

https://www.eopugetsound.org/articles/little-brown-myotis-myotis-lucifugus

Re: decon (technically, cleaning and disinfecting), the preferred method is the hot water (122 degrees F, 50C, for 20 minutes). The chemical versions still work, of course, but the USFWS ran afoul of another federal agency back in 2012 by promoting an off label use for those chemicals, a no-no under the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, Pesticide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA). USFWS, of course, had this out there for several years before the other federal agency took note.

Caver compliance with the decon protocols has been decidedly mixed, but the fact is that permission to visit most caves on federal lands, and many state lands, requires compliance.

The protocols are extremely effective, killing up to 50,000 spores when far less are typically present (see Hazel Barton's research). My own personal opinion, stated frequently on these pages and elsewhere, is that, as a practical matter, deconning in the WNS-saturated zone does nothing to prevent the spread of WNS, which has pretty much run its course. Further, in non-WNS areas, if it's local cavers caving locally, and never having been to a WNS area, there is zero chance of spreading the disease, as it's not present. However, the recent finding in Washington State changes things, especially in that area. Expect state and federal agencies to err on the side of abundant caution and require decon, probably within a 200 mile radius or something similar.

I've also been told that Seattle grotto members are working with the state wildlife agency to help with surveillance in response to the finding. I'm sure any and all assistance would be appreciated.
Last edited by PYoungbaer on Apr 3, 2016 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PYoungbaer
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Apr 30, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Plainfield, VT
NSS #: 16161 CM FE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Vermont Cavers Association
  

Question for those who are still reading/writing to CaveChat

Postby Ernie Coffman » Apr 3, 2016 8:54 pm

Collection time at Ely, Peter. :banana_yay:

Sixteen hundred miles is sure a long way to travel, but time will tell. Shasta Area Grotto (SAG) worked on a statement to put out to the authorities, at our meeting this past Friday; and, Liz Wolff is coordinating all of what went into it.

I still feel you did excellent research and did a lot to disseminate info on WNS to the NSS and the general public. I still remember, vividly--standing, also--your presentation in the theater, downtown, in Vermont, when we had the NSS Convention there a few years ago. :clap:
Ernie Coffman
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sep 10, 2005 12:07 am
Location: Grants Pass, Oregon
  

Re: Question for those who are still reading/writing to Cave

Postby PYoungbaer » Apr 3, 2016 9:02 pm

Jane and I will see you in Ely, Ernie. Just finished making all our trip arrangements.
PYoungbaer
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Apr 30, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Plainfield, VT
NSS #: 16161 CM FE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Vermont Cavers Association
  

Re: Question for those who are still reading/writing to Cave

Postby Chief943 » Apr 6, 2016 1:16 pm

I haven't posted to cavechat for some time and am one of those who finds FB more convenient a way to reach large numbers of people. The NSS page there is very useful imho.
But I do enjoy reading the comments here as well.
Chief943
Occasional Poster
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Nov 11, 2011 7:25 pm
Location: McDowell, Va
Name: Mark Hodge
NSS #: 63563
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Virginia Highlands Grotto
  

Re: Question for those who are still reading/writing to Cave

Postby BrianFrank » Apr 6, 2016 1:54 pm

Personally, I very much miss Cave Chat. It is a one-stop location for a breadth of caving information and discussions. Where else at one domain could you read stories, trip reports, accidents, vandalism, the best boots, coveralls, info on equipment, arguments, complaints, you name it, it was going on at Cave Chat. Plus, there are non-public areas with special discussions that were interesting. Cave Chat is/was the best one-stop cave forum on the Internet. Maybe there will be a resurgence in the next few years.....hopefully. I use Facebook, but its not the same.

Maybe if a dozen or so of us can promise to create one new topic, discussion or trip report a month will put new life in the forum?

I still have Cave Chat email me on new posts and that will never change.
.
All TAG cavers join http://www.SCCI.org. A small price for a GREAT resource.
User avatar
BrianFrank
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 447
Joined: Apr 5, 2011 11:25 am
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Name: Brian
NSS #: 52121
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Dogwood City Grotto
  

PreviousNext

Return to Open Talk Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot]