Sure is quiet here

[wyandottecaver]

same here Amy. been reading avidly. But since I haven't been there cant really comment much.

[boogercaver71]

Thanks! I love it but it's definitely not much for caves lol. Gotta do a little traveling for that which is easy enough.

How is SW Missouri for that? I'm there a few times a year due to family...mostly stick to caves in the Arkansas portion of the Ozarks though. Got a few fracture caves in Devil's Den and then a normal solution cave at Blanchard Springs Caverns does a wild cave tour that was decent. The main thing I didn't like was you couldn't use your own equipment due to the WNB stuff going around but the sites were great. If you know of anything else good around you I'd def like to check that our next time I'm up!

They are a couple private caves near Blanchard that are really nice ,both multi mile and nicely decorated, the public caves are off limits though

[self-deleted_user]

ah ok. Well I just changed my avatar to be me in Swildons.

[PYoungbaer]

Well hmm I was caving in the UK for the last two weeks, I thought I did a good job updating my thread but very few people post in it :(

Absolutely read your posts and enjoyed them. Made me go back and re-do the virtual tour of OFD. Sounds like a great trip.

[self-deleted_user]

Well hmm I was caving in the UK for the last two weeks, I thought I did a good job updating my thread but very few people post in it :(

Absolutely read your posts and enjoyed them. Made me go back and re-do the virtual tour of OFD. Sounds like a great trip.

Hehe the awesome thing is going in the bottom entrance for OFD one in that, i've like...SEEN IT IN REAL LIFE WOOOOO and uh, they did a great job with those photos. I found my way through the EXACT same path we took no wrong turns. I got all the way in through to the boulderchoke and then retraced out and along the flood escape route. So yeah, photos are realistic and well done enough that for me, only going through it ONCE can still find the exact same trip easily :)

[Mudduck]

Still is very quiet.

[MUD]

Still is very quiet.

((((((((((BOOM))))))))))

I'm tryin brother!

[tncaver]

Still is very quiet.

((((((((((BOOM))))))))))

I'm tryin brother!

Me too brother Mud. Where the wind blows, the caver goes....with a bit of help.

[commanderzoom]

Thanks! I love it but it's definitely not much for caves lol. Gotta do a little traveling for that which is easy enough.

How is SW Missouri for that? I'm there a few times a year due to family...mostly stick to caves in the Arkansas portion of the Ozarks though. Got a few fracture caves in Devil's Den and then a normal solution cave at Blanchard Springs Caverns does a wild cave tour that was decent. The main thing I didn't like was you couldn't use your own equipment due to the WNB stuff going around but the sites were great. If you know of anything else good around you I'd def like to check that our next time I'm up!

They are a couple private caves near Blanchard that are really nice ,both multi mile and nicely decorated, the public caves are off limits though

Would one of those you're referring to happen to be one that's been having a Memorial Day gathering for the past 25 years? Last year I forgot I wearing a t-shirt from said gathering while lying about not having visited any other caves in the past 10 years (or whatever the requirement was) in order to get my ticket for one the Blanchard Springs tours . What made it even worse was that I was buying tickets for 2 other people wearing the same shirt . Good thing the guy either didn't notice the shirt, didn't make the connection, or didn't care. That could've turned into an amusing little scene if he'd called me on it.

[commanderzoom]

What the??? Cavechat ate the rest of my post when I hit submit

I'd like to do the wild tour at Blanchard but since I'm not paying $75 for it that's not going to happen. Other cavers might consider that a decent price (do they?) but it's too pricey for me. Out of curiosity, I Googled wild cave tours in Arkansas and came up with a link to Cosmic Cavern. I don't see a rate listed but check out that necessary gear list. It includes "hiking boots or shoes, or tennis shoes" but doesn't mention lights or a helmet. I'm hoping that's because they provide and not because they don't expect participants to use them. A second glance tells that at 5'0 my husband's too short for the wild tour . I showed him the page and he got all offended, wanting me to report them for discrimination.

http://www.cosmiccavern.com/wild_cave_tour.htm

So is it a violation of anti-discrimination laws to require somebody to be 5'2 or taller for a wild cave tour at a show cave? Don't they have the legal right to make their own rules anyway? I honestly can't see what height has to do with anything in this case. Why have the requirement? I'm thinking about calling to ask but have a feeling there might a big argument if they give me some totally BS reason for it. It may or may not be legal to have the requirement but it's still crap unless there's a solid reason behind it. It's not like having to be a certain height for a roller coaster where you could fall out and die if you're not tall enough for the restraints. He's been doing wild caving for a few years now (he's one of my caver buddies I created for myself) and if anything, being short has been an asset. My back and neck end up killing me from stooping in over passages that he can walk straight through. If you find a place that has to be climbed over, you're going to be climbing no matter how tall you are.

[BrianC]

So is it a violation of anti-discrimination laws to require somebody to be 5'2 or taller for a wild cave tour at a show cave? Don't they have the legal right to make their own rules anyway? I honestly can't see what height has to do with anything in this case. Why have the requirement? I'm thinking about calling to ask but have a feeling there might a big argument if they give me some totally BS reason for it. It may or may not be legal to have the requirement but it's still crap unless there's a solid reason behind it. It's not like having to be a certain height for a roller coaster where you could fall out and die if you're not tall enough for the restraints. He's been doing wild caving for a few years now (he's one of my caver buddies I created for myself) and if anything, being short has been an asset. My back and neck end up killing me from stooping in over passages that he can walk straight through. If you find a place that has to be climbed over, you're going to be climbing no matter how tall you are.

Did you know that the ADA ( American disabilities act) requires wheelchair ramps going into commercial swimming pools? I feel for handicap folks but, come on, wheelchair races in swimming pools? Actually private caves should be able to discriminate against hair color if they want, you don't have to go and spend your hard earned money if you don't agree with their policy. Unfortunately, the gestapo controls this.

[NZcaver]

So is it a violation of anti-discrimination laws to require somebody to be 5'2 or taller for a wild cave tour at a show cave? ... It's not like having to be a certain height for a roller coaster where you could fall out and die if you're not tall enough for the restraints.

I'm guessing if there's any logic behind this, it's probably a climbing/bridging/stemming thing. Some maneuvers are more difficult for shorter people because of reach. On the other hand, there are certain people shorter than me that are natural born climbers and make this look easy. The cave operators/guides may have found a significant portion of shorter people have more problems in a certain area of the cave. Ask them. It would be interesting to know. You could also ask if there are exemptions for somebody who is an experienced cave even if you're not planning to pay for a tour. I don't think this is illegal discrimination, so just ask nicely rather than trying to fight them on it. You're not going to be wasting money on a $75 wild cave tour anyway - right?

[commanderzoom]

So is it a violation of anti-discrimination laws to require somebody to be 5'2 or taller for a wild cave tour at a show cave? Don't they have the legal right to make their own rules anyway? I honestly can't see what height has to do with anything in this case. Why have the requirement? I'm thinking about calling to ask but have a feeling there might a big argument if they give me some totally BS reason for it. It may or may not be legal to have the requirement but it's still crap unless there's a solid reason behind it. It's not like having to be a certain height for a roller coaster where you could fall out and die if you're not tall enough for the restraints. He's been doing wild caving for a few years now (he's one of my caver buddies I created for myself) and if anything, being short has been an asset. My back and neck end up killing me from stooping in over passages that he can walk straight through. If you find a place that has to be climbed over, you're going to be climbing no matter how tall you are.

Did you know that the ADA ( American disabilities act) requires wheelchair ramps going into commercial swimming pools? I feel for handicap folks but, come on, wheelchair races in swimming pools? Actually private caves should be able to discriminate against hair color if they want, you don't have to go and spend your hard earned money if you don't agree with their policy. Unfortunately, the gestapo controls this.

I can't see me doing a wild cave tour anywhere but The Devil's Icebox and thanks to WNS that's not going to be happening any time soon. Definitely not forking out $75 for Blanchard Springs when there's a large and very cool private cave right there where I'm camping that I can go in any time of day or night I want. I'd rather go through wild caves with a group of friends and/or fellow cavers AND not have to deal with a tour guide telling us where we can and can't go. Seems like that would ruin it for me. Thought I said that I figured Cosmic Caverns had the right to set whatever rules they wanted in my post but I have a habit of deleting things, then forgetting that I deleted them. They may have that right but they can't expect that if the rule is completely stupid they'll never get called out for having it. He's mostly offended because of a recent incident of being mistaken for a kid in a local smoke shop and being told he wasn't allowed in the building . Bruised his fragile male ego and all that but he'll get over it. He always does. I told him that if he's so bothered by the height requirement at a cave we'll never visit anyway, it was on him to make the phone call and do the complaining.

So is it a violation of anti-discrimination laws to require somebody to be 5'2 or taller for a wild cave tour at a show cave? ... It's not like having to be a certain height for a roller coaster where you could fall out and die if you're not tall enough for the restraints.

I'm guessing if there's any logic behind this, it's probably a climbing/bridging/stemming thing. Some maneuvers are more difficult for shorter people because of reach.

Oh yeah, I get that. Especially if chimneying was the only option at some point--if you're too short to reach, you're too short to reach and you're going to miss out on whatever lays ahead. It would be nice for them to list the reason for the requirement on the website, though, both for the person wanting to do the tour AND for the cave owner. I can imagine other little midget people getting all offended by seeing it and refusing to give them any business at all. Giving a reason would probably help their pocketbooks and might tell him to mention that if he gets worked up enough to call .


I've heard of caves with a weight/girth requirement that's enforced by making the person crawl through a speleobox or under a bar of some kind to make sure they'll fit. I think the reason is probably clearly posted because fat people seem to get more offended by apparent discrimination than short people. Being short can be considered cute or desirable but being fat? No, fat people are always looked down upon and/or made fun of if anything's said about their weight. There are YouTube videos of mildly overweight to morbidly obese people getting stuck and having to be rescued in cave passages and the comments are outrageously rude and discriminatory. That kind of thing can cause very real lasting emotional damage to the person being humiliated like that. I've experienced that (the fat discrimination) first hand but it's never bothered me because I have somewhat distorted body image. I'm like the anti-anorexic and always think I'm a lot smaller than I am. I have to be really careful about that in tight cave crawls and sometimes actually measured the ceiling height to make sure it's at or taller the height I've measured myself to fit through. If I didn't, I'd end up on YouTube and I'd be embarrassed but still lmao over the whole situation. We're such an attractive couple what with him being so short and thin and me being 5 inches taller and twice his weight .

Look at this. There's even a "moral dilemma" about a fat man stuck in a cave involving flooding and blowing him up with dynamite to get the people behind him out . I can't see blowing a person to kingdom come ever being the only option and it wouldn't work any but he should do the right thing and volunteer to have that dynamite shoved up his arse. The people behind him would still be just as dead either way so whoever came up with it must've had the brain capacity of a gnat.

http://www.friesian.com/valley/dilemmas.htm

*Just doing my part to remedy the "sure is quiet" situation around here. I can do unbelievable amounts of rambling online if I have nothing else to do and get sucked into the internet. The kids are all asleep and I'm not sure how that miracle happened. I'd rather be out caving but it's too damn cold to walk back to my caves. Not for me but for my 3 local caving buds since they're wimps about it. Besides, it's dark outside and they're even wimpier about that then they are about the cold but that's mostly my fault. The only time I've gotten lost to the point of having to make a real effort to figure out my exact location and formulate a plan of attack on my own property has been after dark. 2 of them were with me. The other one managed to get lost out there all on her own (it was my mom), couldn't find her way back, and Dad found her sleeping in a cattle trough on neighboring property during his for her. She'll never live that down.

[tncaver]

commanderzoom wrote:"*Just doing my part to remedy the "sure is quiet" situation around here. I can do unbelievable amounts of rambling online if I have nothing else to do and get sucked into the internet."

At least you are providing some humorous light hearted rambling. A nice change from most of what is posted on this forum.

[Chads93GT]

lOl at paying someone $$$$ to take you on a wild cave tour. Thats what grottos are for.