Even more "Open" Talk?

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Even more "Open" Talk?

Postby LukeM » Jul 13, 2010 7:57 am

So, it appears that whether or not Cavechat has a political subforum, political discussions are happening in amongst threads that are decidedly non-political. Obviously the government actions that have come as a result of WNS have people all fired up. Also, it doesn't look as if moderators are interested in editing these off-topic comments out, which I understand completely seeing as how every other post is someone's opinion about the government. Still, I find it annoying to be reading something interesting about caving only to run into someone's political agenda in the next post. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good political discussion as much as anyone if it's happening in the right place/time.

What are people's thoughts? Should there be a subsection (for registered members only?) to discuss things of a more political nature? These people are going to spout their opinions whether there is or isn't, so why not?
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Re: Even more "Open" Talk?

Postby graveleye » Jul 13, 2010 8:15 am

There used to be a political and religious discussion subsection. Nothing positive ever came from within it.
The internet has thousands of sites where people can discuss religion and politics until the cows come home anyway, so it's not like anyone is deprived of that sort of discussion.

You're correct in that the WNS situation does bring about more discussion of government, and politics enters into those discussions, but so long as the discussion doesn't tip towards pure politics, then there's no problem.
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Re: Even more "Open" Talk?

Postby Chads93GT » Jul 13, 2010 8:17 am

I personally don't understand why there isn't a lounge forum here, where anything goes. Within reason of course.
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Re: Even more "Open" Talk?

Postby tncaver » Jul 13, 2010 8:17 am

LukeM wrote:What are people's thoughts? Should there be a subsection (for registered members only?) to discuss things of a more political nature? These people are going to spout their opinions whether there is or isn't, so why not?


I would have said yes to a subforum that concerns governmental influence on caving until recently, when it became obvious that government personell
are monitoring this forum, Facebook and who knows what else. Big brother is watching. George Orwell's 1984 arrived just a few years later than his
book predicted.
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Re: Even more "Open" Talk?

Postby graveleye » Jul 13, 2010 8:23 am

Chads93GT wrote:I personally don't understand why there isn't a lounge forum here, where anything goes. Within reason of course.


trust me on this. We tried it. It got very ugly.
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Re: Even more "Open" Talk?

Postby BrianC » Jul 13, 2010 9:07 am

Luke, I can't see any way to research and understand the WNS tragedy without also understanding the implications that have been put upon cavers by the USFWS. Why have a discussion and leave the primary party out of the loop? If you don't want to read the discussions, then don't.
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Re: Even more "Open" Talk?

Postby Chads93GT » Jul 13, 2010 9:14 am

Gets ugly on the mustang sites I frequent as well. I still don't see the problem, lol. I can see why it would not be allowed. Lots of people get butt hurt when people don't agree with them with their political views.
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Re: Even more "Open" Talk?

Postby LukeM » Jul 13, 2010 2:03 pm

BrianC wrote:Luke, I can't see any way to research and understand the WNS tragedy without also understanding the implications that have been put upon cavers by the USFWS. Why have a discussion and leave the primary party out of the loop? If you don't want to read the discussions, then don't.


Brian, I have no problem when any discussion surrounding WNS discusses the way the government has been interacting with that particular subject matter. The real problem is when people put forward a separate agenda that has nothing to do with caving and bats.

Case in point, the thread about the latest Mammoth Cave volunteer controversy. As soon as the subject of the federal government came up someone had to spout their opinion about income taxes. Of course, no one can just let this comment die like it should, and the discussion devolves into explanations of where your tax money goes, accusations of certain un-named Cavechat members being 'anti-government radicals', people who think this is directed at them defending themselves, and complaints about federal social programs. That's just one example of many I've seen lately. Most are purposely indirect as to avoid accusations of being off-topic but they still are, and it keeps people from focusing on the topic at hand.

All I'm saying is it looks like a lot of people here have some steam to blow off and maybe there could be a sort of release valve in the form of a sub-forum.
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Re: Even more "Open" Talk?

Postby Evan G » Jul 13, 2010 3:12 pm

graveleye wrote:
Chads93GT wrote:I personally don't understand why there isn't a lounge forum here, where anything goes. Within reason of course.


trust me on this. We tried it. It got very ugly.


Chad,

Like Kevin said it was very, very ugly! In someways, I wondered if it did lead to that guy posting 5000 TAG cave sites on the web. He was ticked!
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Re: Even more "Open" Talk?

Postby BrianC » Jul 13, 2010 3:32 pm

LukeM wrote:
BrianC wrote:Luke, I can't see any way to research and understand the WNS tragedy without also understanding the implications that have been put upon cavers by the USFWS. Why have a discussion and leave the primary party out of the loop? If you don't want to read the discussions, then don't.


Brian, I have no problem when any discussion surrounding WNS discusses the way the government has been interacting with that particular subject matter. The real problem is when people put forward a separate agenda that has nothing to do with caving and bats.

Case in point, the thread about the latest Mammoth Cave volunteer controversy. As soon as the subject of the federal government came up someone had to spout their opinion about income taxes. Of course, no one can just let this comment die like it should, and the discussion devolves into explanations of where your tax money goes, accusations of certain un-named Cavechat members being 'anti-government radicals', people who think this is directed at them defending themselves, and complaints about federal social programs. That's just one example of many I've seen lately. Most are purposely indirect as to avoid accusations of being off-topic but they still are, and it keeps people from focusing on the topic at hand.

All I'm saying is it looks like a lot of people here have some steam to blow off and maybe there could be a sort of release valve in the form of a sub-forum.



I agree with this Luke. I also know that cavers have been demanded of by being closed out of caves. This has opened up the controllers to discussion pertaining to fallacies of said controllers. In this case our federal government, and those who side with them. Now, everyone has their own prejudices, and everyone is right in their own mind. It is human nature to evaluate the mindset of those who oppose them. Then realize the best way to bring their prejudice out for discussion and hopefully a resolution that fits everyone involved. Here in lies a problem, when the controller doesn't have the decency to invite or even allow discussion, it becomes a lose lose situation. Case in point; The meeting with the GDNR a few weeks ago, near the end of the meeting, the USFWS representative said that if facts showed any difference, let them know. We showed the facts, it didn't make any difference and the meeting then closed. Sound familiar?

edited for improper spelling.
Last edited by BrianC on Jul 14, 2010 8:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Even more "Open" Talk?

Postby LukeM » Jul 13, 2010 7:26 pm

Jeez Brian, I didn't mean let's make this thread the political subforum! :tonguecheek:
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Re: Even more "Open" Talk?

Postby graveleye » Jul 14, 2010 9:51 am

yes let's not!!
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Re: Even more "Open" Talk?

Postby Teresa » Jul 25, 2010 9:37 pm

tncaver wrote:
LukeM wrote:What are people's thoughts? Should there be a subsection (for registered members only?) to discuss things of a more political nature? These people are going to spout their opinions whether there is or isn't, so why not?


I would have said yes to a subforum that concerns governmental influence on caving until recently, when it became obvious that government personnel are monitoring this forum, Facebook and who knows what else. Big brother is watching. George Orwell's 1984 arrived just a few years later than his book predicted.


Government officials are people, too. Some of them are cavers. It is a good thing to talk with government officials who are cavers. And an even better thing to talk with those who are not.

There is a distinct difference between "politics" as civil service government or Congressional actions related to caves, (speleopolitics) and partisan politics advocating a particular party or person, or opining on matters which do not have any relevance to caves or caving. As long as government is making rules about caves and caving, that subtopic should be fair game. :clap:
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Re: Even more "Open" Talk?

Postby BrianC » Nov 9, 2010 8:03 am

Teresa wrote:
tncaver wrote:
LukeM wrote:What are people's thoughts? Should there be a subsection (for registered members only?) to discuss things of a more political nature? These people are going to spout their opinions whether there is or isn't, so why not?


I would have said yes to a subforum that concerns governmental influence on caving until recently, when it became obvious that government personnel are monitoring this forum, Facebook and who knows what else. Big brother is watching. George Orwell's 1984 arrived just a few years later than his book predicted.


Government officials are people, too. Some of them are cavers. It is a good thing to talk with government officials who are cavers. And an even better thing to talk with those who are not.

There is a distinct difference between "politics" as civil service government or Congressional actions related to caves, (speleopolitics) and partisan politics advocating a particular party or person, or opining on matters which do not have any relevance to caves or caving. As long as government is making rules about caves and caving, that subtopic should be fair game. :clap:


Exactly!
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