1983 TCS Narrative Cave Files, Marion Co. TN

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1983 TCS Narrative Cave Files, Marion Co. TN

Postby tagkycaver » Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am

Found in boxes in the remaining inventory of the library of late NSS Fellow Warren G. Dixon are several copies of the Tennessee Cave Survey Narrative Cave Files, Marion Co. TN, bound in office folders. 71 pages. Contains the official complete narrative descriptions, elevation, and exact coordinates of every known cave which had been reported up to that time in Marion County, Tennessee, including numerous caves submitted by Moni, Barr, Matthews, Smith, Buice, Lane, Smyre and many others. Includes primary reports of amazing classics such as Cagle Chasm, Gourdneck Cave, South Pittsburg Pit, Solution Rift, Nickajack Cave, The Sinkhole, and approximately 350 other caves and pits. These copies are in excellent condition, but have a cloudy spot/stain on the first 3-4 pages apparently from the original printing which does not effect readability.

It was Warren's wishes that his library materials regarding caves be distributed to fellow cavers. Due to the nature of this publication, they will only be made available to current NSS members (Trust me, I will check!)

$25 each, basically to cover my time and expense of going to the post office. PM me if you want one.

NOTICE: OFFER WITHDRAWN; See posts below.
Last edited by tagkycaver on Jul 20, 2015 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1983 TCS Narrative Cave Files, Marion Co. TN

Postby UnderGroundEarth » Jul 20, 2015 11:38 am

Perhaps they should also be a Tennessee Cave Survey Member? Isn't this violating their copyright?

"Copyright © 1998-2013 Tennessee Cave Survey, All Rights Reserved. All of the TCS information & data are proprietary including any TCS information contained on this web site. The TCS does not give out Tennessee cave locations. Duplication, distribution & use of any of any TCS information & data is by written permission only. Failure to request permission to use contents as stated herein is considered a violation of the U.S. Copyright Law."
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Re: 1983 TCS Narrative Cave Files, Marion Co. TN

Postby tagkycaver » Jul 20, 2015 6:01 pm

Well that brings up a good discussion point, SO THIS ITEM IS HEREBY WITHDRAWN/CANCELLED.

As a general rule, a copyright transfers with an original item when it is transferred or re-sold. For instance Larry Matthews' "Descriptions of Tennessee Caves" is obviously copyrighted, yet after the initial purchase it can be transferred or re-sold without violating the copyright (I'm sure Larry M. would love to get a cut though!) These TCS narratives are original publications, similar to other items such as regional caving publications, state-published books, convention guidebooks, etc. occasionally auctioned or sold on this site which are clearly copyrighted. I'm not sure where Warren Dixon got any of the items in his library, but I know he was a long-time and well respected NSS and TCS member, and without question obtained the items legitimately. After his death, his wife turned over his library to me to be disposed of in accordance with his wishes; most of it was sold on consignment by one of the caving-book companies, but she allowed me to keep whatever I wanted, including numerous boxes of magazines and publications which I am still sorting through several years after his death when I get a little free time. Believe me, he had EVERYTHING; some early versions of stuff, some never published stuff, some rough drafts and some copies of copies of copies.

I am as concerned as anyone about availability of cave data, that's why I generally require the purchaser of these types of publications to be an NSS member, indicating they have a legitimate commitment to/interest in caves. This is more restrictive than even the NSS Bookstore, which sells items such as both Barr's and Matthews' books openly on the internet to anyone with a credit card.

So the question is, what is a fair and conservation-minded way to pass on existing caving publications to new cavers when old cavers die, retire, or otherwise fade away? Should caving publications which give "too much information" just be burned? Or should they be passed on in some responsible way to other cavers who have a genuine interest and use for them. I'm open to suggestion and anyone's thoughts on the matter.
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Re: 1983 TCS Narrative Cave Files, Marion Co. TN

Postby NZcaver » Jul 22, 2015 2:17 pm

tagkycaver wrote:As a general rule, a copyright transfers with an original item when it is transferred or re-sold.

You are correct. Limiting the distribution/disclosure of material or information is outside the scope of U.S. Copyright laws. You're not copying the material, you are selling/transferring the originals. Just because somebody adds extra clauses beyond the standard copyright declaration, doesn't make it anything more than words on paper. However if there are signed proprietary nondisclosure agreements in effect for the material/information (e.g. company confidentiality contracts regarding "trade secrets"), that's a whole different ball game.

Of course, this is just a random statement on the internet and is not a legal opinion. So feel free to do your own due diligence.

Offering these items for sale to their original intended audience - or at least within the caving community - seems like a reasonable course of action.
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Re: 1983 TCS Narrative Cave Files, Marion Co. TN

Postby CaverScott » Jul 22, 2015 3:24 pm

However, the "original, intended audience" was only TCS members." :bat sticker:
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Re: 1983 TCS Narrative Cave Files, Marion Co. TN

Postby NZcaver » Jul 23, 2015 3:14 pm

CaverScott wrote:However, the "original, intended audience" was only TCS members."

Right. My point is that copyright laws do not restrict the distribution or transfer of original copyrighted material to only the "original intended audience."
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Re: 1983 TCS Narrative Cave Files, Marion Co. TN

Postby GroundquestMSA » Jul 23, 2015 4:52 pm

What if you were a TCS in '83 but are currently not :big grin: .
So the only "proper" things to do are to sell to TCS members or throw away?
I'm a TCS and an NSS member. I'd like one.
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Re: 1983 TCS Narrative Cave Files, Marion Co. TN

Postby boreholio » Jul 30, 2015 9:45 am

I recommend not distributing TCS information to non members period. Cavers can join TCS ( http://www.subworks.com/tcs/ ) if they want the information.TCS members can get current narrative files on cd. No need to buy an old hardcopy.
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Re: 1983 TCS Narrative Cave Files, Marion Co. TN

Postby GroundquestMSA » Jul 30, 2015 3:41 pm

I like old hard copies.
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