formation cleaning question

[Nico]

I'll be at the annual Bustamante cave cleanup in Mexico this coming presidents day, and I heard that graffiti removal is done with plain water
and a brush, I'd like to know if there's a better way to do it like adding some sort of cleaning product, the ones that release oxygen come to mind.

I'd appreciate any help you guys can provide.

[wendy]

Hopefully Lynn Roebuck will jump in this thread, she helped with the clean up thing at the convention this year.

But from what little I know, water should be good. If you bring chemicals in you could hurt the cave life in there.


What i learned at convention could not all be used here in Florida, as our cave makeup is different, some of our limestone is brittle and fragile and not as hard as TAG limestone.

[barcelonacvr]

Perhaps in the future hand held devices may be available?PDF

http://www.llnl.gov/str/pdfs/04_96.3.pdf

[Nico]

But from what little I know, water should be good. If you bring chemicals in you could hurt the cave life in there.

I know its not that much of a good idea, but there's gotta be something to make it a little less hard.

That laser thing eramosakarst saw on that website is a nice thing to have around for this kind of work.

[Teresa]

Do NOT use petrochemicals (naptha, gasoline, anything containing petroleum distillates) as these things adversely affect skin breathers and aquatic life.

Do NOT use any acid containing chlorine (like hydrochloric acid). Chlorine is as bad for cave life as petrochemicals.

Do NOT use strongly alkaline chemicals. Liberating free oxygen may be as harmful as petrochemicals.

Some of the citrus based grease cutter products are OK, if you dilute, use sparingly, wipe them off thoroughly, and do not let them into cave water (changes the pH). Remove all rags/sponges and so forth from the cave in plastic bags.

I have seen dry ice dissolved in water used to make weak carbonic acid and that solution used. I have also seen people use seltzer water or tonic water (CO2 dissolved in water-nothing else). I have also seen dilute acetic acid-- (white vinegar) added to water to make a very weak (less than 5%) solution. Do NOT use straight.

I have seen baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and powdered chalk used for an abrasive. Again, rinse and dilute thoroughly.

Take two kinds of brushes, sponges and rags. Nylon brushes and wire brushes. Use the wire brushes only in places where the walls are damp, and the scratches can heal over time.

If it looks like you are harming the wall or stal--STOP. First, do no harm.

[wendy]

Also something I learned during the convention is make sure you are not getting rid of any historical graffitti. You can have someone come in and look at it and mark off areas not to be cleaned for historical reasons.

[Ralph E. Powers]

Also something I learned during the convention is make sure you are not getting rid of any historical graffitti. You can have someone come in and look at it and mark off areas not to be cleaned for historical reasons.

Indeed, and what is exactly classified as "historical"? Here we look at the date and if it's more than 25 years and/or of a person of significance (that's used loosely too, i.e. a old-timer that didn't know better way back when, etc.) then we leave it alone. Otherwise the BILLY LOVES TARA's have GOT to go!

[Nico]

seen people use seltzer water or tonic water (CO2 dissolved in water-nothing else). I have also seen dilute acetic acid-- (white vinegar) added to water to make a very weak (less than 5%) solution. Do NOT use straight.

I have seen baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and powdered chalk used for an abrasive. Again, rinse and dilute thoroughly

This is what I was looking for, something that bubbles, or a little abrasive, some guy told me that a dental pick would also help remove calcified mud or paint to remove the "clear coat" of calcite.

Also something I learned during the convention is make sure you are not getting rid of any historical graffitti

There's some graffiti in there that is 40 plus, years old someone painted
the logo of the military school I was in and I really want to remove that, am I supposed to not remove that?

Thanks for the help so far, keep it coming

[Teresa]

Dental picks are good.
Toothbrush size wire brushes. Look in paint removal section of hardware or discount store. Stiff nylon toothbrushes.
Kitchen pot 'scrubbies' --wire, stiff green pads--not sandpaper ones. Without soap.
Fingernail/hand cleaning stiff-bristle brushes (almond shaped, about 4 x 2 inches in size).

[Dan Sullivan]

When I do restoration, I like to spread a large tarp or piece of plastic under the work area to catch any drippings and such. I use 'box of rags' to soak up the cleaning water, so as to leave as little evidence behind as possible.

[Cap'n Spanky]

We've used "Hudson" type sprayers to assist with cleaning mud and paint. I generally try to use water from the cave. In one cave there was an area with a constant flow from a ceiling drip that would fill a 5 gallon bucket in about 10 minutes. When you can't use water from inside the cave, I'd look for a close-by resurgance or creek. Or well water that hasn't been through a softener. Those would be better options than treated city water. Though I can't imagine anyone hauling and packing in city water to do a clean-up trip.

[Dan Sullivan]

Though I can't imagine anyone hauling and packing in city water to do a clean-up trip.

Maybe not city water, but distilled water.............If only the caves around here had water dripping in them. Most caves along the Front Range, where all the people live, are dry and dusty. The rest are high alpine caves that usually are snowed in, or are so wet the spray paint won't stick to the walls.

[Lynn]

I came in late on this thread and all I can say is (shrug)I was out caving!

Lots of great information has already been given on this topic but let me also contribute a few things.

Think about it this way, the main objective for cave conservationists / restorationists is to restore the cave to as natural a condition as possible without causing damage to anything else in the cave. So before any cave restoration project is planned do ask a cave archaeologist, cave historian and cave biologist or others who are trained in these fields to check the cave and advise what steps should be taken to protect these non-renewable cave resources (prehistoric cave art, historic writings, artifacts or cave life) which may be found in the cave so these treasures are not lost to future generations of cavers.

It is generally accepted that items are considered historic if they are 50 years old or older. But some items we find in caves may have historic significance to the caving community, the local community, etc, etc, even though they may not yet be 50 years old and therefore need to be evaluated individually. In the case of the military school logo some questions to ask are; What date was the school established? What prominent people were students in the school? Did the school organize student trips to the cave? Does the school still exist? These type questions may help determine the military school history as well as how it connects to the cave. It has been my experience that if a school logo is present there is also a good chance some of the military school students may have also left their name and possibly a date. A local historian may be able to help or at least tell you the history of the military school, if you give them a call.

Since my organized cave life began one of the things us cavers hear over and over again is "do not pee and do not poop in the cave"! That's probably not the best expression available, but the point I'm trying to make is if human waste contaminates the cave, groundwater and the fragile cave ecosystem that cave animals need to survive, then what effect do you think chlorinated water, chemicals, paint removers, ajax, etc, etc, has on the cave, the groundwater and the cave life?

Lots to think about, eah?

[Nico]

do ask a cave archaeologist, cave historian and cave biologist or others

There are hardly any cavers in my area, experts are even more scarce
sad but true.

The military school was founded in 1938 it still exists and the paint in the cave is dated
1960 something and is more like a "look how bad @ss we are" kinda thing
makes me feel embarrased. if anyone feels curious enough you can check the logo here: http://www.pentathlondeportivo.org.mx

I forgot to mention this is a "show cave" I say that in quotes cause theres a guy who can guide you through the entrance room but if you wanna go any further you're on your own, I call it a wild show cave.

Since my organized cave life began one of the things us cavers hear over and over again is "do not pee and do not poop in the cave"

I get it, I wont be taking any cleaners even if that means I have to scrub harder

[Teresa]

I get it, I wont be taking any cleaners even if that means I have to scrub harder

This is a show cave. What does the owner want you to do? Secondly, is the cave noted for its cave life, (and lots of water) or it it fairly dry? I've seen pics of Bustamante...but I don't remember... If cave life isn't a problem, and the point is graffiti removal, you 'can' use cleaners, but just be careful and mop up afterward as several have suggested. The petroleum distillates are the real baddies, but the other things are not so bad if handled carefully.

In the US I know of several show caves (not particularily noted for cave life) where formations near the trail are scrubbed twice a year with a dilute chlorine/water slution to kill algae from the lights. (Yes, they shut the lights off between tours, but the stuff grows anyway.) The rocks are scrubbed, and then rinsed, and patted dry and the rinsewater taken from the cave. The alternative is leave the green stuff grow until it deteriorates the rock.

I even know of one where dilute sulfuric acid was used (sulfuric acid plus calcite = gypsum). The sulfuric acid water was used sparingly with gloves, neutralized on the formation with garden lime, and again, debris and rinsewater taken from the cave.

Just figure out what you and your crew have experience at, go slow and you'll do fine. Don't use extreme means unless elbow grease won't work, but hey, there are US cavers who take sandblasting equipment and power wire brush drills into caves to remove graffitti...something I'd never do, but hey, I don't know their caves. Start with the least destructive and least chemical, but never say never...
Not to cast aspersions on the pee bottle crowd, but what one does in a cave depends upon what the cave is like. There isn't much point (except moral high ground) to take a pee bottle when the cave stream is running with ag waste... or the cave gets flushed out with 10 ft high walls of water every month. You just have to adapt to the surroundings.

Best wishes with your trip.
Teresa