More Cave Closures and....

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Re: More Cave Closures and....

Postby Jagdmann » Jan 30, 2010 4:46 pm

tncaver wrote:It must be about control. I won't be sending any more of my cave discoveries to the Tennessee Cave Survey. Now I wish I had never registered Rumbling Falls Cave which I found in 1997 on a solo ridge walk, or any of the other hundreds of caves I found over the years. However, I'll be happy to ridge walk for pay for the government.


Hmm, they might be paying quite a bit for those holes that don't go, lol.... :rofl:
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Re: More Cave Closures and....

Postby plicpriest1 » Jan 30, 2010 5:09 pm

Thus may come the day when all caves on public land (and possibly private too) are officially closed. No access granted. The question becomes what happens when WNS continues to spread, or even another disease starts? What if all the bats die off. Damn it would be a shame that we couldnt have all worked together. As far as I am concerned the cavers are definatly doing there part to solve the problem. The other administrations are not willing to work closely with cavers (as far as I can tell based on several other threads about this).

One thing holds true though, cavers are imaginative and motivated. It is my best estimation that if the day comes that all caves are closed, there will still be secret caving still going on. I will, and each time I go I will throw a stone at the closed sighn. Or find another way in if I have to.
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Re: More Cave Closures and....

Postby tncaver » Jan 30, 2010 5:28 pm

plicpriest1 wrote:Thus may come the day when all caves on public land (and possibly private too) are officially closed. No access granted. The question becomes what happens when WNS continues to spread, or even another disease starts? What if all the bats die off. Damn it would be a shame that we couldnt have all worked together. As far as I am concerned the cavers are definatly doing there part to solve the problem. The other administrations are not willing to work closely with cavers (as far as I can tell based on several other threads about this).

One thing holds true though, cavers are imaginative and motivated. It is my best estimation that if the day comes that all caves are closed, there will still be secret caving still going on. I will, and each time I go I will throw a stone at the closed sighn. Or find another way in if I have to.


More than likely there will only be signs (and gates) on very significant bat caves. I am not against closing hibernacula until more can be learned about WNS
and hopefully a cure. It is possible bats may all die off. We all hope not. But there are thousands more caves with no bats. Caves that are not hibernacula
should remain open for recreation and science. Only problem is, government wants them all closed. That does not compute. Simple solution. Leave non
hibernacula open and continue studying cause and effect of WNS. Trouble is...lack of cooperation on the part of government and other agencies. That is
what indicates this is about control more than anything else. Why? Same reason government wants to control everyone on the planet I guess. More than likely sloth situation like greed.
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Re: More Cave Closures and....

Postby Jagdmann » Jan 30, 2010 6:02 pm

tncaver wrote:Only problem is, government wants them all closed. That does not compute.


From a conservation aspect, you're right it doesn't compute.
Now let's look at it from a slightly different perspective. From a military standpoint, it is an extremely well thought out, strategic move.
No conspiracy theory in this, just good, solid facts.
It's hard to control a populace that you can't find. :looking:
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Re: More Cave Closures and....

Postby tncaver » Jan 30, 2010 6:21 pm

rptyd wrote:
tncaver wrote:Only problem is, government wants them all closed. That does not compute.


From a military standpoint, it is an extremely well thought out, strategic move.
No conspiracy theory in this, just good, solid facts.
It's hard to control a populace that you can't find. :looking:


Show us the facts. I don't follow this reasoning but I am willing to listen.
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Re: More Cave Closures and....

Postby Jagdmann » Jan 30, 2010 7:36 pm

tncaver wrote:
rptyd wrote:
tncaver wrote:Only problem is, government wants them all closed. That does not compute.


From a conservation aspect, you're right it doesn't compute.
Now let's look at it from a slightly different perspective. From a military standpoint, it is an extremely well thought out, strategic move.
No conspiracy theory in this, just good, solid facts.
It's hard to control a populace that you can't find. :looking:


Show us the facts. I don't follow this reasoning but I am willing to listen.


The facts come from history itself.
When any populace is felt threatened, whether it be real or perceived, there will always be those that hope for the best but prepare for the worst and of course you will always have the fatalists.
Caves have been used as dwellings for eons by humans, in migration, emergency shelter and standard living. In times of war, caves have been utilized as hideouts, base of operations and sometimes just a bolt hole.
During the holocaust a great many Jewish people survived by hiding in caves, to the dismay of the German regime.
The Japanese hid in caves during the war ("Cave Flushing"
Thousands of Okinawan civilians and Japanese soldiers hide in caves on the island. Many, believing torture and death follow capture, resort to suicide.

Nisei MIS of the 314th undertake the dangerous task of cave-flushing, trying to coax out Japanese soldiers and Okinawan civilians)(Get a lot of caves. And these caves can be used by army defensive position. That's why the troops moved to the south. Southside even get more.")"Tom Masui was with the 96th Division. He personally got nearly 2000 civilians to give up and emerge from caves or burial chambers. (It was Okinawan custom to build large tombs, or dig large caves, then bury their dead in massive urns. It became civilian custom and sometimes Japanese military custom during the campaign for the islanders to hide out in these places, which gave Nisei with a sensitivity toward centuries-old Japanese customs quite a problem.)"
The Jordan valley caves and surrounding areas has been used by the Bedouin and Jewish people for safety and shelter during the various wars that have plagued that part of the world for centuries.
There was extensive use of the caves on Guam in the years during the war and afterwords.
During the Civil War caves were used extensively for hiding, look at Vicksburg!

I could go on and on, this list is truly endless.
Any of this information is available on Google, but there is so much more that isn't.
For a government to close access to caves, that in itself would be pretty blatant, but if there just happened to be an issue that might keep them off the hook for accountability on cave closer. Well, it would seem quite foolish to not utilize such an unforeseen/foreseen (?) gift. There is so much going on behind closed doors these days that it's hard even to imagine what people are going to face in the future. People and Governments learn from past errors, not all but certainly some. If you can't control something, then you take the necessary steps and do preventative maintenance. We are all aware that our Government does not relish the thought of lack of control.
The facts are there, but no answers are.
I think at this point, considering the audacity of recent political agendas that this would be a wise move on the part of our government for internal security measures....
If something like this is actually put into effect, we will all be criminals by being cavers.
Not a nice picture! :shhh:
Please forgive me for lack of credit on certain references, I wasn't into it tonight.
Last edited by Jagdmann on Jan 31, 2010 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: More Cave Closures and....

Postby tncaver » Jan 30, 2010 8:10 pm

Caves are not a viable place to survive a serious event such as a nuclear, bio, or chemical event if that is what you are referring too. Most people don't
know where caves are, caves draw in outside air in most cases (depending on the season) which would draw in hazards. Caves are much too humid in most cases for long term healthy survival by humans. People would be more likely to survive in their basements than in caves. The long drive to a cave could be life threatening in many war type instances even if anyone did know where to drive to. Illogical in todays world.
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Re: More Cave Closures and....

Postby Jagdmann » Jan 30, 2010 9:18 pm

tncaver wrote:Caves are not a viable place to survive a serious event such as a nuclear, bio, or chemical event if that is what you are referring too.

I don't think our government would be foolish enough to nuke their own back yard
nor poison it.
tncaver wrote:Most people don't know where caves are, caves draw in outside air in most cases (depending on the season) which would draw in hazards.

Cavers know where caves are, they would be the logical choice to shut down, to stop exploration, to stop all unauthorized activity. They would be the logical guides that any government would have concerns over. Alienate them and make their lifestyle illegal.
tncaver wrote:Caves are much too humid in most cases for long term healthy survival by humans. People would be more likely to survive in their basements than in caves.

In today's world, even w/ all of our wonderful technological advances, the world is still stuck w/ the human caver for underground exploration. Although uncomfortable, and not ideal in our spoiled society, living in a cave when your life depends on it is quite plausible. What were people living in before our nice, new condos? Caves... Our history as humans put us in caves for many centuries long before we were building homes, and the people that lived in these caves stayed healthy long enough to breed us.
tncaver wrote:The long drive to a cave could be life threatening in many war type instances even if anyone did know where to drive to. Illogical in todays world.

Not everyone survives. :shrug:
This is certainly hypothetical but is also food for thought.
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Re: More Cave Closures and....

Postby plicpriest1 » Jan 30, 2010 9:37 pm

One more thought on cave condos: We know that a nuclear or bio attack would kill all in a cave eventually, no doubt. I think that folks would want to hide out for religious or political reasons.

It is interesting to note that the current direction the government is taking right now is modeling the pre nazi germany.
Dont believe me!!? How about when gun control was heavily enforced in germany? Any body paying attention to the news now? Gun rights are constantly being attacked (from all angles).

On that note I have to get on my soap box for a moment: Guns are machines. Guns dont kill people, idiots kill people (let me clarify: if a person breaks into my house I WILL ghost them unless they run than fine. They would be the IDIOT that got themself killed). Guns dont have a conciense. There are few accidents and most neglegence. I will argue this point until I die :flamed: .

I know I know im off topic. But lastly because of another thread (guns in caves), I now know that it would be OK to carry my .45 into a cave :big grin: .

Finally I want every one to know that I am a patriotic citizen and believe in the constitution (tear). :patriotic2:
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Re: More Cave Closures and....

Postby Jagdmann » Jan 30, 2010 10:47 pm

plicpriest1 wrote:One more thought on cave condos: We know that a nuclear or bio attack would kill all in a cave eventually, no doubt. I think that folks would want to hide out for religious or political reasons.

It is interesting to note that the current direction the government is taking right now is modeling the pre nazi germany.
Dont believe me!!? How about when gun control was heavily enforced in germany? Any body paying attention to the news now? Gun rights are constantly being attacked (from all angles).

On that note I have to get on my soap box for a moment: Guns are machines. Guns dont kill people, idiots kill people (let me clarify: if a person breaks into my house I WILL ghost them unless they run than fine. They would be the IDIOT that got themself killed). Guns dont have a conciense. There are few accidents and most neglegence. I will argue this point until I die :flamed: .

I know I know im off topic. But lastly because of another thread (guns in caves), I now know that it would be OK to carry my .45 into a cave :big grin: .

Finally I want every one to know that I am a patriotic citizen and believe in the constitution (tear). :patriotic2:


:rofl: :kewl: :cave softly:
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Re: More Cave Closures and....

Postby tncaver » Jan 30, 2010 11:02 pm

rptyd, I guess I'm missing your point because I do not see any reason for the military to be interested in caves (except maybe Lecheguilla sp?).
I don't see these cave closures as having anything to do with the military other than the fact that a few caves do exist on some military installations
and the CBD wants all caves closed on FED land.
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Re: More Cave Closures and....

Postby Jagdmann » Jan 30, 2010 11:51 pm

tncaver wrote:rptyd, I guess I'm missing your point because I do not see any reason for the military to be interested in caves (except maybe Lecheguilla sp?).
I don't see these cave closures as having anything to do with the military other than the fact that a few caves do exist on some military installations
and the CBD wants all caves closed on FED land.


[/quote]According to the Army Times (dated Tuesday, September 30, 2008), "Beginning Oct. 1 for 12 months, the 1st BCT [Brigade Combat Team] will be under the day-to-day control of U.S. Army North, the Army service component of Northern Command, as an on-call federal response force for natural or manmade emergencies and disasters, including terrorist attacks."
The article continued by saying, "But this new mission marks the first time an active unit has been given a dedicated assignment to NorthCom, a joint command established in 2002 to provide command and control for federal homeland defense efforts and coordinate defense support of civil authorities.The brigade will be known for the next year as a Consequence Management Response Force, or CCMRF (pronounced "sea-smurf").[/quote]

[/quote]One of America's most sacred principles has always been that the U.S. military was never to be used for domestic law enforcement. The fear of standing armies ran very deep in the hearts and minds of America's founders. The tyranny and misery inflicted upon the colonies by British troops weighed heavily upon those who drafted our Constitution and Bill of Rights. In their minds, the American people would never again be subjected to the heavy weight of army boots. Furthermore, they insisted that America would have a civilian--not military--government.[/quote]

[/quote]The John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007, which included a section titled "Use of the Armed Forces in major public emergencies." This section provided that "The President may employ the armed forces to restore public order in any State of the United States the President determines...." In effect, this bill obliterated Posse Comitatus.[/quote]

Interpol was also recently given a free reign in the US with no higher court than themselves on US soil, Obama signed the addendum not long ago.

I would say the military definitely has an invested interest in the US underground, considering our new laws.

Lets hope it ain't so, lol.......
Thanks for the break though, I think we're all hoping for the best outcome. :big grin:
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Re: More Cave Closures and....

Postby plicpriest1 » Jan 31, 2010 10:37 am

I guess simply that the caves are of value to everyone. Whether it be for environmental reasons (could affect our water), recreational reasons, scientific reasons, or from a military standpoint a possible command post. I do believe the VC were operating underground. It isnt too unheard of, though probably not likely.

Here is a thought: Albert Einstien was quoted as saying "It is not yet known what world war 3 will be fought with, but it is known that world war 4 will be fought with sticks and stones". Using that logic it may just be a matter of time.

Also at this point im not going to have a heart attack just yet... Im going to keep caving and enjoying myself (hell I might as well because when it all hits the fan :hitsfan: I will miss these times).
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Re: More Cave Closures and....

Postby tncaver » Feb 3, 2010 3:46 pm

Recently I sent an email to the USFWS requesting their research data concerning their cave closure policy. They have replied that they have not conducted
any research. They went on to say that they believe humans are spreading WNS. And more....
If anyone is interested I will be glad to forward to you, the very interesting reply from the USFWS. It seems they are genuinely making policy based on hearsay
rather than facts.

Send me a PM with your email address and I will forward their email to you.
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