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Re: Cave Gating Workshop

PostPosted: Aug 20, 2009 11:26 am
by Jeff Bartlett
STLCaver wrote:Here is my gripe. St. Louis County Parks and Recreation have completely turned their backs on the local caving community, unless there is something for them to be gained. They always seem to pop up when they need a kiosk built or for a National Cave Gating seminar. They have closed the majority of their caves and WILL NOT issue a permit for those caves that previously were open.

Awesome, so this workshop is being conducted by a group with an exceedingly poor track record toward cavers? That's so awesome. There's nothing more awesome than mixing in some anti-caver ideology with your cave-gating training. Seriously, just awesome.

This is why Arkansas has no caves to speak of, because it's groups like this that start speaking of them. Let's just gate everything and play cribbage.

Re: Cave Gating Workshop

PostPosted: Aug 20, 2009 8:48 pm
by Chads93GT
Dang Tony, I had no idea THAT was the cave that was being gated. I read about that story a while back after I heard of it from the guys down here. Truely a tragic story. Sucks that you guys have to deal with this kind of BS up in the city. Makes me glad I live to the south a few miles. We are just trying to keep them the hell out of our territory, as we don't want anything to do with any of those guys. If we gate any caves, it will be because we have secured a lease from the land owner before hand.

Have fun at Round Spring this weekend, wish I could help out, but I already had a trip planned.

Re: Cave Gating Workshop

PostPosted: Aug 20, 2009 9:05 pm
by wyandottecaver
slightly :off topic:

but since this was first brought up as a posting in the EVENTS section of the NSS page I thought you (especially TNcaver) would find these excerpts from the 2007 NSS Annual Report interesting :big grin:

That's one reason why the NSS has embraced the use of gates on the entrances of certain caves to regulate human traffic.

The NSS is part of a nationwide steering group on bat cave gating that includes the federal and several state governments, Bat Conservation International, and other conservation groups. The bests sources of information about bat cave gating.

(grants)• a cave gate design forum in Texas; • a study comparing bats' responses to gates at entrances versus gates farther inside caves and mines;

Thirty-five years ago, vandalism and increasing human traffic threatened the cave's ecology. The NSS decided on a radical experiment: it created a cave gate from an old jail cell door and installed it on the entrance in 1968. The vandalism stopped, but the endangered gray bats that had inhabited the cave would not fly through the bars. With the bats gone, their guano no longer supplied food for the other species that lived in the cave, and those other species nearly disappeared. A new gate design in 1981 was supposed to encourage bats to return, but things did not improve. Unlike most bat species, it appears that gray bats are particularly skittish about cave gates.

Along with The Nature Conservancy and other organizations, the NSS helped the Corps in an unprecedented three week campaign to place bat-friendly gates on seven entrances into the Dud/Haile Cave System in Tennessee.

USF&WS was one of many groups with which the NSS formed a task force to study the design of bat cave gates.

I'm just sayin......

Re: Cave Gating Workshop

PostPosted: Aug 21, 2009 6:36 am
by Elvis
I don't post much, if at all. Tony is at Round Spring, so I hope he comments when he gets home. Cliff Cave in St.Louis County, Missouri, has a long and sometimes sordid history. Realistically, the cave should have been properly gated many years ago, at the very least after the tragic incident noted of 15 or so years past. You could look it up. There was a$$ coverin and all sorts of legal shuckin and jivin goin on. And Bill Elliot inherited the job of "Missouri Cave Dude" for the state whether he liked it or not. Again, another story. But the cave gating workshop, for those of you who have been paying attention, is more or less an annual event. The BCI, the ACCA, and others, do this regularly, with the appropriate invites from the locals. Apparently this particular project has been in the works for a few years. The cave has seen much local spelunker interest (and damage) over the years. As a side note, the first time I went in was while working for the local sewer district as a survey crew member, and the crew boss needed a secluded, cool place to finish his paperwork. So, to the park, and the rest of the crew left him to his work while we did a 2 newspaper trip into the cave. As in the Stephen Bishop trip. One lit newspaper in, and one lit newspaper out. Eventually I became a real caver. And my next trip into the cave was more or less as Tony describes--I spent about 3 hours with 2 dead kids in a really small passage.

So, here we are. They are gonna gate the big main entrance, and a much smaller sink entrance. Whether we agree or not. There is a 3rd entrance, but they filled it with gravel a few years ago. So these folks are not up front cave freindly. The St.Louis County Parks system has several caves in several parks and its all just a management problem for them. So at this point I will give them credit for at least talking to the local grottoes. The Meramec Valley Grotto voted to contribute 500 bucks to the effort, not because its gonna do anything, the county is gonna pay the bill whatever (and my property tax and all is in there too!!!) but because we wanna be on record as supporting caves and access. (Can I mention here how much I hate this computer crap, that eats your last pargraph? Maybe new thread? OK, sorry)

So the MVG is gonna throw in, all red flags noted, and see what happens. If its like the last times, it'll be thanks for the dough but see ya later, or maybe we'll all get a heart attack and they'll say, so you wanna manage the cave, get with it. We'll see. I have more, but this is enough for now.

PS, since I don't regularly post, but I have read several other threads, let me say here ( a la Hans and Franz, "Hear me now and believe me later") if you are gonna rant and you aren't willing to claim your name, the just shut the %$%## up. I am Mark Andrich, NSS 43335, and I approve this message.

Re: Cave Gating Workshop

PostPosted: Aug 21, 2009 9:54 am
by batrotter
Elvis wrote:I don't post much, if at all.

Yea, one time!

Re: Cave Gating Workshop

PostPosted: Aug 21, 2009 9:58 am
by tncaver
When NSS members vote for members to the Board of Governors, they aren't required to give out their name. So, why should anyone on this forum have to give out their name? Names are irrelevant. Is yours Presley or Costello? It really makes no difference does it, so long as TOSS rules are followed. :argue:

Re: Cave Gating Workshop

PostPosted: Aug 21, 2009 12:52 pm
by Anonymous_Coward
tncaver wrote:When NSS members vote for members to the Board of Governors, they aren't required to give out their name. So, why should anyone on this forum have to give out their name? Names are irrelevant. Is yours Presley or Costello? It really makes no difference does it, so long as TOSS rules are followed. :argue:

Well, it makes a difference to me. (and others) Here's what the difference is:

When you post your real name, it adds credence to what you are saying. I tend to respect an opinion more if I know who it belongs to. While you are not required to give your name, not doing so makes what you are saying more irrelevant to me. I often don't even fully read the posts that are given by the alias people. This is not a video game, or a secret ballot election. The BOG voting analogy does not apply. This is not an election. This is a place for cavers to gather and discuss real world issues.

It's as if we are all sitting around a campfire, but some of the cavers there are wearing masks and disguising their voices. They might be wearing a TAG or NCRC t-shirt to give you some clue of where they are coming from, but you really don't know who they are. Who are you most likely to listen to and respect, the ones behind the mask or the ones that look you in the eye?

That is the difference.

Screw the "TOSS" and all the smilies. I come here to talk to real people about real issues. I have nothing to hide. And don't give me the tired old identity theft or spam argument. I refuse to live in fear of that nonsense as well.

Re: Cave Gating Workshop

PostPosted: Aug 21, 2009 1:18 pm
by tncaver
jaa45993 (AKA Andy Armstrong). We will have to agree to disagree. I have no problem with that. There are a lot of people
on this forum that I don't always agree with. And sometimes I do agree with those same people. There are also a lot of people
on this forum who do not identify themselves. After all, there are nut cases out there that might want to do bodily harm to
people simply because they don't agree with what they are saying.

Now, assuming you are referring to me or wyandottecaver, we have both identified ourselves on this forum in the past. If
you really give a crap who we are, search our posts and you will eventually find out. It's not that big a secret. You also know
what state we are from and I have even included my picture avatar. I suppose next you will want our social security number
and finger prints. Sorry, not going to happen. Since names matter to you, I suppose NSS numbers do to. Mine is way lower
than yours. Does that matter?

There are a lot of cavers in this country who are not NSS members but still love caving and the cave fauna and flora. All of them may or may not identify themselves. If they are not NSS members, even if they identify themselves, you still don't know who they really are, where they live, etc. I can look you up in the NSS manual if I want to find out. But who cares. I'm interested in what you and others have to say and so long as TOSS rules and the laws of the land are followed (no assaults, murders, defamation of character). It's pushy a_ _, smart alec lunatics that some people don't want to bother with. They
could show up at your doorstep someday. And just for the record, I am not calling you any of those names or accusing you of
anything. I like to hear what you and other people have to say whether I agree or not, so long as the rules are not blatantly
broken. :big grin:

Re: Cave Gating Workshop

PostPosted: Aug 21, 2009 2:05 pm
by MUD
:big grin: My mama has been calling me "Cavemud" since 1974. Its been on my license plate for many years...even when I lived in PA. :kewl: Maybe none of you care...but there it is! :rofl: My name is Todd "Cavemud" Hancock-Millfield, OH. NSS 29718....and I approve this message! :laughing:

Re: Cave Gating Workshop

PostPosted: Aug 21, 2009 2:22 pm
by tncaver
Hey Cavemud,
Your NSS number is lower than Andy Armstrong's. :rofl:

Hey Andy Armstrong,
You are welcome to skip over any of my posts and those of anyone else you don't agree with. Excuse me, but I'm still going to
read yours. I WANT to know other people's opinions. That's why I'm on this forum. That's why forums exist. The whole
purpose is to spread ideas and news.

Re: Cave Gating Workshop

PostPosted: Aug 21, 2009 3:27 pm
by wyandottecaver
The three points distilled from past discussions are: 1) nicknames are fun 2) if you want my name ask 3) while nicknames certainly allow some to be more opinionated, people who want to use anonymity for abuse are dealt with effectively by the admins and TOSS. This was all bantered about ad naseum in other threads and isn't really worth a prolonged or acrimonious debate at least in this thread. just my 2 cents.

Re: Cave Gating Workshop

PostPosted: Aug 21, 2009 3:27 pm
by Jeff Bartlett
I think I'm with Elvis on this one. I actually just changed my screen name TO my real name, if I'd realized you could even do that I would have done it 12 months ago. I also got tired of meeting people in real life and hearing: "are you that xcathodex guy on the board?" Now there's no gray area. Facebook (of all things) has kinda convinced me that putting your name behind the things you say is a positive step for the web.

We all like causing (or participating in) an internet kerfuffle here and there, but if you're going to voice a strong opinion, it's more meaningful with a name behind it. I'm more inclined to listen to an opinion from John Smith than one from CaverGurl4235 (unless she's really cute). But nobody is calling anybody else out. You don't wanna share your name, that's cool. No worries. It's also worth noting that there are at least a few people on this board hiding behind fabricated "real" names that are essentially pen names, so things aren't always what they seem.

But seriously, who cares? Besides, totally off-topic.

Back on topic: it's shameful that people who volunteered in a freaking body recovery -- one involving children that was undoubtedly traumatic for all involved -- aren't afforded more respect by the management group in charge.

PS - my NSS number is higher than all of yours.

Re: Cave Gating Workshop

PostPosted: Aug 21, 2009 3:45 pm
by NZcaver
Moderator hat on

Folks, we're way off topic here. If you want to beat this dead horse some more, go here and knock yourself out. Just know that our forum members are welcome to share their real names, NSS numbers, and other personal information as they choose - or not. It's as simple as that. Let's stop the slinging match and get back on topic please.

And FYI - TOS only has one "S" and trying to screw it won't get you anywhere, Andy.

Moderator hat off

P.S. - Hi Elvis! Welcome to the forum. :waving:

And yes, I approve this message.

Re: Cave Gating Workshop

PostPosted: Aug 21, 2009 4:07 pm
by MUD
:hitsfan: Oh my...just when it was getting good. This board gives me a good laugh about everyday! :rofl: Thanks to all of our regularly scheduled posters... :lmao:

Re: Cave Gating Workshop

PostPosted: Aug 21, 2009 6:33 pm
by Anonymous_Coward
For the record, Elvis started it! I was only responding to a direct question from tncaver: "Why should anyone have to give their name?"

If wyandottecaver or tncaver took it personally, then that is their own choice. I have no problem with either one of those guys, and I know who both of them are.
I was merely trying to explain why people make comments like the one Elvis did.

I'm not sure where the NSS number measuring contest came from. I have never claimed that mine was lower than anyone elses. If you like to brag about yours, then fine. Similarly, if using my first and last name every time you refer to me makes you feel better, then by all means...