Batrotter, you will soon be reduced to the number one person on my "foe" list, and thank goodness these forums allow for such filtering. In Utah, I am similarly accused of being another person, as you and Andy have done here, which I asure you am I not. I did not enter this forum trashing cavers, and some of your fellow Hooisers agree with me in that assessment. You and I may share a love for drafting, but little else. You do not recognize my right to love the underground as I do and you somehow feel that any interest in the underground from a mining perspective and orientation is somehow less worthy than the pure unadultrated caver gene. So be it, when I throw that foe switch, you and your posts will disappear from my version of this forum and I won't have to cross paths with you. Our loss, because I believe that forums were designed for an exchange of information and dialogue. If you are participating in the ksl thread here in Utah, identify yourself for us because the ksl site is accusing me of being everyone from the devil to Corey Shuman and back again, and there are eerie similarities between your comments here and on anonymous posts on ksl...
For those who visited my profile and found nothing to determine who was speaking to you, I have corrected that with a start at an introduction.
To Andy Armstrong, who accuses me of hiding behind anonymous screen names, I noticed that you listed your location as "inside the beehive." Does this mean you are a fellow Utahn? As for your apology for confusing me with anyone else, apology accepted. As for your confusion when dealing with people who you say "hide behind screen names," I wasn't hiding at all. Here I am. I went to work this morning and hadn't the time to populate my profile. Your assumption that I was hiding was woefully incorrect. Your invitation to talk in the open is accepted. Anytime, anywhere. Your assumption I wasn't willing to talk in the open is similarly misplaced. Besides, anyone can google "thelivingwest" and get a bunch of hits, all leading to me. Scott McCrea [thanks
Scott] figured it out without too much trouble. As for your standing by the rest of your post, I'll have to drill down and find it and comment further.
Phil Winkler may actually be on to something, as I too believe that trolls are behind the incredibly intense ksl discussion and some of the lashing out at people here.
Lastly, I must confess that in addtion to NOT being Corey Shuman, I am also NOT wyandottecaver either, although batrotter probably suspects I am a deepcover operative using his alias as well
wyandottecaver makes my points better than I can...
1. Posts should be evaluated on their content not their person of origin. [Try suggesting batrotter than I am really wyandottecaver. I dare ya...]
2. IMHO it is the BLM who deserves the bashing. They apparently knowingly allowed a private entity to control a public resource by not enforcing a probably invalid claim...[Bingo!]
Again, wyandottecaver has hit the nail on the head...
3. "Provoke us? bashed cavers? how? by offering for sale a mining claim the BLM issued? By saying that claim may provide for use of the land other than what cavers would prefer? By saying GRE profiting from the claim is no different than the Bates profiting from it? By saying that folks got up in arms based on their perceived "best use" and didn't seek another resolution? "
In spite of the comments by CaverDale, I did NOT provoke nor bash cavers. Point 3 says it all.
Batrotter's latest entry, "You and your other aliases are quite a piece of work." makes me strongly believe he cannot fathom that more than one person can hold a contrary opinion to his.
Lastly, [for now] the comments of CaverDale....that I don't know anything about the discussion we are having here...Lets see, if I can sum up his comments, he can't understand 1. why/how I interprete things the way I do, he asks me to limit my discussion in this thread to the 2. sale of the Crystal Ball Cave, and comments that I have 3. a strange way of putting a negative spin on things the Utah DOGM is doing out here. He further alleges that the Bates knew from day one that their mining claim over a cave was invalid. If true, then CaverDale has accused the Bates of a
crime, [illegal occupancy of a mining claim for non-mining purposes]
CaverDale states "They asked us for advise, and are voluntarily protecting the caves that are involved at their expense and donated funds. They are not trying to close anything of significance and are cooperating with the BLM and grottos fully" and then accuses me... 4. "Where do you come up with these peculiar ideas?"
WELL,
1. I interprete things from my
perspective, which is that of a mining historian/mine explorationist. That is how he/I can view a situation like the Candlelight Cave issue here in Utah, and he thinks its a win-win and that the DOGM and BLM have completely cooperated with cavers in supporting and accomplishing wonderful things for him; yet I can view it as a sad loss of mine openings for me and my friends to explore. It is sad that since I have a differing view than his, he concludes that I am the one with peculiar ideas and strange interpretations...
2. The Crystal Ball cave is not up for sale, the ad was relisted with corrected language to explain more precisely what is up for sale--2 unpatented lode claims of approximately 20 acres each. Repeat, the Crystal Ball cave is not for sale...
3. My negative spin on DOGM comes from the fact that they backfill mine openings here in Utah like there's no tomorrow. Caverdale thinks that Candlelight Cave is an example of saving a cave for use by Utah grottos but it is also the story of the loss of mine openings to explore, which is my passion. He says the DOGM advised HIM of their plans to close mine openings in North Tintic East next year, so what is my complaint?.... That ONLY HE and his group was advised. My groups to which I belong were not consulted, and in fact the DOGM refuses to provide me with advanced notice of their actions. Sour grapes? Maybe.. Jealousy, sure, a distinct possibility. But it may also be a violation of anti-trust laws to favor one group over another in the doling out of opportunities to be advised about resource closures. The fact that CaverDale has a relationship with the State in managing caves in Utah may be impacting his ability to see the wrongs I see the State commiting, or at least the favoritism exercised.
4. For my final peculiar idea, see my Open Letter to the Caving Fraternity elsewhere in this forum and at
http://www.adoptamine.org.
Until tomorrow...