Major Utah crystal cave listed on eBay. HELP!!

[thelivingwest]

Dale:


-SOURCE-
(Pub. L. 100-691, Sec. 9, Nov. 18, 1988, 102 Stat. 4550.)

Yes, I am fully aware of this provision in the act. I have many copies. But, have you ever heard of a case where this has actually been applied? That is what I was asking. Shuman is saying that there have been many cases. Please cite an example of where miners have mined away a cave or otherwise destroyed a cave that has been declared as Significant under the FCRPA.

No, I haven't heard of any case law interpreting or elaborating on the fact that the FCRPA will not impact valid mining claims. But if the BLM attempts to cite the FCRPA as a rationale for attacking the GRE claims, they will have a lawsuit on their hands because of the above-cited section. The section emphasizes that a balance exists between caves and mines. [Many co-exist quite pleasantly] I know you are familar with the story of the Candlelight Cave... Corey may be trying to avert a similar fate for the Crystal Ball Cave...

http://www.caves.org/grotto/timpgrotto/ ... story.html

The Candlelight history also demonstrates that the BLM and DOGM aren't always the friend of caves/cavers...Corey didn't say or even mean to imply that mining claims trump the FCRPA to cause/allow their destruction by mining [he is right in pointing out that a valid mining claim can co-exist in law with the FCRPA] but to imply that the FCRPA automatically invalidates any mining claim located on or near a significant cave is just as absurd. The reason the BLM never invalidated the Bates' claims is because they tacitly approved of the Bates' caretaking of the land until they started demanding insurance coverage of them for their "tours." Holding a mining claim is a valid method of preventing BLM closure of cave entrances.

[batrotter]

And now, the rest of the story. It's interesting to me that 2 brand new posters show up here and start defending mining? just who are "Gold_Rush_Expedinc" and "thelivingwest" and why do they feel a need to come on here and defend their actions? It's gets curiouser and curiouser.

[thelivingwest]

And now, the rest of the story. It's interesting to me that 2 brand new posters show up here and start defending mining? just who are "Gold_Rush_Expedinc" and "thelivingwest" and why do they feel a need to come on here and defend their actions? It's gets curiouser and curiouser.

Just a newbie to your forum who is all warm and fuzzy at the wonderful welcome extended by batrotter...and defending nothing but the concept that cavers and mine explorationists have more in common with each other than not...

[batrotter]

Just a newbie to your forum who is all warm and fuzzy at the wonderful welcome extended by batrotter...and defending nothing but the concept that cavers and mine explorationists have more in common with each other than not...

Are you a caver or are you not? If not, then why are you here? And no cavers don't have much in common with miners, other than we wear helmets and lights.

[thelivingwest]

Lifetime member, International Association of Gold Divers [cave divers], BA, JD, even a member of Phi Alpha Theta, and yes, a caver since 1973, and mine **explorationist** who loves history and I also aced my drafting final at CSM my first semester there...so, who made you the newbie policeman? Sorry officer, I didn't see the sign on the outskirts of town saying "miners not allowed..."

[batrotter]

Lifetime member, International Association of Gold Divers
..so, who made you the newbie policeman?

"International Association of Gold Divers" Why is there no such thing found on the net?

I can ask about anything I want to and you can be disingenous about anything you want to. OK?

[Phil Winkler]

Clearly, there is a lot going on here under the surface (pun intended). I can't imagine anyone, let alone a caver, responding to the silly/sensational ad on eBay. Since there is so much local knowledge/history I'm sure most of us would expect the local cavers to provide information.

Miners are certainly different then cavers. Different objectives for the most part. Most cavers aren't collectors of crystals or other formations found in caves.

[Caverdale]

Holding a mining claim is a valid method of preventing BLM closure of cave entrances.

No, a mining claim cannot be used to claim a cave! Why would the BLM want to close a cave entrance? Do you even understand what this discussion is about?

[thelivingwest]

Wow, the welcome mat is really extended, first, a challenge for even showing up here, then a libelous accusation of lying about my credentials... I think I am offended, there ought to be a law....oh, there is [the forum terms of service]:

"You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may would be deemed offensive. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned...."

I was given a lifetime membership in the International Association of Gold Divers in 1972. Sorry if you refuse to believe it, but facts are facts. There's a neat little feature on this forum. Go to "profiles" and you can label a person a friend or a foe. What shall I label you? I'm off to the other forum sections where I am bound to find more agreeable people to chat with Thanks for the welcome....it's really appreciated

BTW, Mine explorationists are not miners....and the Candlelight Cave experience ought to have taught anyone who lives in Utah that the BLM and DOGM are into sealing caves that pose a public safety hazard. Wasn't it the quick action by grottos that convinced the BLM and DOGM to back down on closing off the Candlelight? Oh, you're all for closing down mines, but not caves....I see, and when they eventually target caves, you'll have no allies or shoulders to cry on....I DO understand what this discussion is about...its about underground access management, and to deny that the Bates used their mining claims to manage the Crystal Ball is patently absurd. The BLM is not always ready to give a grotto a monopoly on caves in Utah. And the State is very leery of keeping caves open on SITLA lands. The DOGM is targeting the area around the Nutty Putty next year..It's called North Tintic East....

[Caverdale]

BTW, Mine explorationists are not miners....and the Candlelight Cave experience ought to have taught anyone who lives in Utah that the BLM and DOGM are into sealing caves that pose a public safety hazard. Wasn't it the quick action by grottos that convinced the BLM and DOGM to back down on closing off the Candlelight? Oh, you're all for closing down mines, but not caves....I see, and when they eventually target caves, you'll have no allies or shoulders to cry on....I DO understand what this discussion is about...its about underground access management, and to deny that the Bates used their mining claims to manage the Crystal Ball is patently absurd. The BLM is not always ready to give a grotto a monopoly on caves in Utah. And the State is very leery of keeping caves open on SITLA lands. The DOGM is targeting the area around the Nutty Putty next year..It's called North Tintic East....

Sir:

You have a strange way of interpreting what you read. The BLM and DOGM are not into sealing caves that pose a public safety hazard. They have never done that. I was right there with the Candlelight affair. The BLM and DOGM did not "back down" with the closure. They were simply unaware of the cave's existence. When they found out about it, they bent over backwards to accommodate the Grotto's effort to preserve it and donated a considerable sum of money to to build a gate. Yes, I deny that the Bates used their mining claim to manage Crystal Ball Cave. Sims and Bates knew practically from day one that the claims were invalid. It was the realization by the BLM that they were in no position to protect the cave as well as the Bates did that allowed the Bates' to continue with their activities there. The BLM was never ready to give a grotto a monopoly on caves. Where do you come up with these peculiar ideas? Yes, Utah State is very leery of keeping caves open on SITLA lands, like Nutty Putty Cave, because of potential liability law suits caused by all the rescues. Please note that it is now open to responsible parties who comply with a set of rules. Yes, we are aware that the DOGM is targeting the area around Nutty Putty next year called the North Tintic East area. They asked us for advise, and are voluntarily protecting the caves that are involved at their expense and donated funds. They are not trying to close anything of significance and are cooperating with the BLM and grottos fully. You have a strange way of putting a negative spin on these events.

This is off topic but I feel the need to comment on your incorrect statements. Please use this forum to discuss the sale of Crystal Ball Cave.

[Scott McCrea]

In the Facebook photo album linked on the eBay listing, this picture suggests you (GRE) may enjoy this thread.

[caverdan]

AAH HAH!!!! That's where I left my gun......

[Caverdale]

Just checked eBay. The listing for the sale of Crystal Ball Cave has been removed. When last checked about 2 hours ago there were 6 bids for $18,100. This is not the end of legal work. Stay tuned to this station.

[wyandottecaver]

I didn't know squat about mining claims, BLM policy, or Crystal Ball Cave. I don't *know* much more now. I do know it was unfortunate that some members chose to respond the way they did. Thelivingwest made rational, reasonable arguments to the thread (whether they are accurate ) and got a rude and ridiculous response. Who cares if a poster is a caver or not as long as it is relevant to the thread? Worse, to suggest non cavers shouldn't even be here is shameful. I also know several cavers who gem hunt and have heard of several miner/cavers, and everything I have seen online suggests that the old mining claim was indeed just a device to operate a quasi commercial cave on public land. I also doubt anyone will argue that agencies in general and Federal ones in particular are in many cases simply unreliable..or worse, adverse to providing recreational caver access for a variety of reasons.

I feel GRE is making a living by "working the system" and preying on the unwary by re-selling mine claims to questionable properties...but livingwest wasn't defending GRE or their intent directly only the mechanisim they are using. Which to me (knowing little) does appear to be valid...at least as valid as the Bates claim was. What the BLM knew, thought, or fantisized about is irrelevent. What they *did* was let a private entity manage a cave using a mining claim. Without the claim it would appear the Bates would be just another set of hikers on public property.

[Anonymous_Coward]

Text deleted because I stand corrected on the identity of thelivingwest


Corey,

If someone calls you a liar, it is not slander if the accusation can be backed up with fact. In that case it is just a statement of the truth. If you were truly interested in preserving the cave through a sale, you would have offered it to a local caving or conservation group. The fact that you are using an auction is the only evidence I need that you are in this for the money.

And don't be surprised if you get less than a warm welcome from this group. You can expect the same treatment from any group that you work in direct opposition to. Consumptive exploitation of cave resources for money is not looked kindly upon around here. The reaction here has been quite civil and restrained considering what you are up to.