Major Utah crystal cave listed on eBay. HELP!!

[Scott McCrea]

"thelivingwest" = GRE = Corey Shuman. It is all the same person.

Maybe not. One may deduce from the profile of "thelivingwest" that this is Russ Hartill, a lawyer/mining enthusiast from Sandy, UT. So, is Corey Shuman really Russ Hartill? FWIW

[Grandpa Caver]

I must agree with Wyandotte. This forum is intended to be a "discussion board" but from the start, most of the responses in this thread have been insinuations and accusations, in large part from cavers.

While I must admit the proposed sale of this mining claim seems suspicious, a guilty untill proven innocent attitude has prevailed.

[TooeleCherokee]

thelivingwest" = GRE = Corey Shuman. It is all the same person.

Wow Andy.. that is quite the statement can you show your proof? as someone who is stating that they can show proof for their statements I would hope you could provide some

And no Russ and Corey are not the same Person

Im not either :)


I can see where someone might get into a uproar about crystal ball being sold but it looks to me like the government has for a long time allowed the Bates family to control and operate Crystal ball as a private enterprise based on a mining claim so I would "Think" that would be a precedence no matter what the BLM or anyone else has said it would be what they have done and what is written that would hold more weight in court. GRE seems to be handling the property in accordance with how the land has been handled in the past and with that goes the ability to sell it. Should GRE have contacted the local Grottos directly? I think not. what one would he go to? is it GRE's job to go out and find a caretaker for the land? The sale came on your radar within a day or 2 so you have as much chance as the next tom D or harry to purchase it. It seems as Americans we have lost the ability or willingness to go knock on our neighbors door when we have a problem with what they are doing and just call the cops instead... Seems to me that is a lot of what is happening here. Has anyone even called Corey to talk to him and see what can be done or is everyone just going off half cocked?

[batrotter]

I must agree with Wyandotte. This forum is intended to be a "discussion board" but from the start, most of the responses in this thread have been insinuations and accusations, in large part from cavers.

OK, Grandpa Caver and Wyandotte, there has just been a third newbie sign up here to provoke us. He/she signed up as "TooeleCherokee" as of today. See the posts above mine.

I can understand your thoughts on this but there have been three new posters, in the last 24 hours on here to basically trash cavers. Do you guys not see some sort of deceit in that. This is quite a common tactic for many forums on the net. They are disruptors. How do you think three brand new separate people showed up here within 24 hours to defend mining and bash cavers?

[Anonymous_Coward]

"thelivingwest" = GRE = Corey Shuman. It is all the same person.

Maybe not. One may deduce from the profile of "thelivingwest" that this is Russ Hartill, a lawyer/mining enthusiast from Sandy, UT. So, is Corey Shuman really Russ Hartill? FWIW

Well Scott, I stand corrected.

You are obviously a better "deducer" than me! When I went to the profile for thelivingwest I found nothing to indicate who was speaking to us. Just an anonymous screen name. Since it appears that you guys do know who thelivingwest is and he is not Corey Shuman, I have deleted that part of my post and I apologize. I sort of get confused dealing with people that hide behind screen names and are unwilling to talk in the open.

I stand by the rest of my post.

[TooeleCherokee]

I must agree with Wyandotte. This forum is intended to be a "discussion board" but from the start, most of the responses in this thread have been insinuations and accusations, in large part from cavers.

OK, Grandpa Caver and Wyandotte, there has just been a third newbie sign up here to provoke us. He/she signed up as "TooeleCherokee" as of today. See the posts above mine.

I can understand your thoughts on this but there have been three new posters, in the last 24 hours on here to basically trash cavers. Do you guys not see some sort of deceit in that. This is quite a common tactic for many forums on the net. They are disruptors. How do you think three brand new separate people showed up here within 24 hours to defend mining and bash cavers?

I have not "Bashed" anyone nor have I defended mining (that can be done by anyone who uses any mineral in their daily lives but that is a argument for another day right :) ). 3 new people adding to the conversation on something that there are many sides on, isn't that far of a stretch to think that you will get people that want to add to the conversation. I am sorry that if someone doesn't agree with you they are a disruptor in your mind instead of someone adding to the conversation most even slightly open minded people try to see more than one side of the story. Anyhow enough of the he said she said thing you don't like people that disagree with you and are trying to deflect the conversation from facts and what should be done to making monsters out of anyone who disagrees with your assessment of the correct course of action.

Has anyone called GRE to see what kind of deals can be made regarding the crystal ball mine/cave?

[Scott McCrea]

You are obviously a better "deducer" than me! When I went to the profile for thelivingwest I found nothing to indicate who was speaking to us.

Aww, shucks. You deduce just fine. (Google knows.)

[TooeleCherokee]

You are obviously a better "deducer" than me! When I went to the profile for thelivingwest I found nothing to indicate who was speaking to us.

Aww, shucks. You deduce just fine. (Google knows.)

Now that is lame that he is on as 2 different people (ok more than lame). Thanks for the proof to back up the other guys statement. I still believe they/he had some decent points. End result I think all parties want is to keep Crystal Ball open and protected from vandalism (be it mining punk kids)..

What needs to be done to do this?

[Phil Winkler]

This thread is clearly a work of trolls. From the original eBay announcement to everything else.

I mean, who else walks (as it were) into a room of strangers and starts such inflammatory dialogues?

If local cavers thought this cave was worth saving I'm sure they would step up. Seems to me the locals are well aware of what has transpired over the years.

[wyandottecaver]

( I make no argument as to whether the Mining claim itself is valid, or whether the claims of posters (be they the same person or 3)are accurate. The BLM and maybe the courts will decide that).....

apart from initial statements by GRE.... Provoke us? bashed cavers? how? by offering for sale a mining claim the BLM issued? By saying that claim may provide for use of the land other than what cavers would prefer? By saying GRE profiting from the claim is no different than the Bates profiting from it? By saying that folks got up in arms based on their perceived "best use" and didn't seek another resolution? Who really cares if multiple posters are 1 person or 3? Posts should be evaluated on their content not their person of origin.

IMHO it is the BLM who deserves the bashing. They apparently knowingly allowed a private entity to control a public resource by not enforcing a probably invalid claim, and when that invalid claim lapsed they then issued another one! I.e. they categorically failed in both their responsibility to provide oversight to claims AND to protect the resource. They NOW oppose the claim (helped along by people who were paying attention) but the fact is that they seem to have an uphill battle. 1) The Bates useage sets a pretty clear precedent. 2) GRE has experiance in legal swordplay with the government 3) Precedent already exists for the BLM losing in court where a "valid" usage of a claim doesn't have to be the "best" usage....thus as long as the claim holders have a valid use...as an example, the cave is currently about 500ft long..."exploration tunnels" can be up to 3000ft.......

Frankly, while GRE's motives seem purely selfish, (my pure guess is the govt will pay them a settlement to buy back the claim) Hopefully this controversy will show just how errr "effective" the BLM is at following the law and protecting our public resources from private interests....i.e they arent. I don't pretend to know what constitutes a valid mineral resource for mining claims but It seems entirely likely that had the Gates WANTED to gut the cave using their claim, then they probably could have using any one of several flimsy pretexts including "building stone" or "exploration tunnels" .

As a side note, it seems that wind cave NP itself was the result of a court challenge of a mining claim dispute (i.e. 2 owners neither of whom did any mining, fighting over control for tours) thus attracting the governments interest......

[batrotter]

Has anyone called GRE to see what kind of deals can be made regarding the crystal ball mine/cave?

You and your other aliases are quite a piece of work. After stirring everything up, you still want to know what us cavers are willing to spend on your "mining claim".

[thelivingwest]

Batrotter, you will soon be reduced to the number one person on my "foe" list, and thank goodness these forums allow for such filtering. In Utah, I am similarly accused of being another person, as you and Andy have done here, which I asure you am I not. I did not enter this forum trashing cavers, and some of your fellow Hooisers agree with me in that assessment. You and I may share a love for drafting, but little else. You do not recognize my right to love the underground as I do and you somehow feel that any interest in the underground from a mining perspective and orientation is somehow less worthy than the pure unadultrated caver gene. So be it, when I throw that foe switch, you and your posts will disappear from my version of this forum and I won't have to cross paths with you. Our loss, because I believe that forums were designed for an exchange of information and dialogue. If you are participating in the ksl thread here in Utah, identify yourself for us because the ksl site is accusing me of being everyone from the devil to Corey Shuman and back again, and there are eerie similarities between your comments here and on anonymous posts on ksl...

For those who visited my profile and found nothing to determine who was speaking to you, I have corrected that with a start at an introduction.

To Andy Armstrong, who accuses me of hiding behind anonymous screen names, I noticed that you listed your location as "inside the beehive." Does this mean you are a fellow Utahn? As for your apology for confusing me with anyone else, apology accepted. As for your confusion when dealing with people who you say "hide behind screen names," I wasn't hiding at all. Here I am. I went to work this morning and hadn't the time to populate my profile. Your assumption that I was hiding was woefully incorrect. Your invitation to talk in the open is accepted. Anytime, anywhere. Your assumption I wasn't willing to talk in the open is similarly misplaced. Besides, anyone can google "thelivingwest" and get a bunch of hits, all leading to me. Scott McCrea [thanks Scott] figured it out without too much trouble. As for your standing by the rest of your post, I'll have to drill down and find it and comment further.

Phil Winkler may actually be on to something, as I too believe that trolls are behind the incredibly intense ksl discussion and some of the lashing out at people here.

Lastly, I must confess that in addtion to NOT being Corey Shuman, I am also NOT wyandottecaver either, although batrotter probably suspects I am a deepcover operative using his alias as well

wyandottecaver makes my points better than I can...

1. Posts should be evaluated on their content not their person of origin. [Try suggesting batrotter than I am really wyandottecaver. I dare ya...]

2. IMHO it is the BLM who deserves the bashing. They apparently knowingly allowed a private entity to control a public resource by not enforcing a probably invalid claim...[Bingo!]

Again, wyandottecaver has hit the nail on the head...

3. "Provoke us? bashed cavers? how? by offering for sale a mining claim the BLM issued? By saying that claim may provide for use of the land other than what cavers would prefer? By saying GRE profiting from the claim is no different than the Bates profiting from it? By saying that folks got up in arms based on their perceived "best use" and didn't seek another resolution? "

In spite of the comments by CaverDale, I did NOT provoke nor bash cavers. Point 3 says it all.

Batrotter's latest entry, "You and your other aliases are quite a piece of work." makes me strongly believe he cannot fathom that more than one person can hold a contrary opinion to his.

Lastly, [for now] the comments of CaverDale....that I don't know anything about the discussion we are having here...Lets see, if I can sum up his comments, he can't understand 1. why/how I interprete things the way I do, he asks me to limit my discussion in this thread to the 2. sale of the Crystal Ball Cave, and comments that I have 3. a strange way of putting a negative spin on things the Utah DOGM is doing out here. He further alleges that the Bates knew from day one that their mining claim over a cave was invalid. If true, then CaverDale has accused the Bates of a crime, [illegal occupancy of a mining claim for non-mining purposes]

CaverDale states "They asked us for advise, and are voluntarily protecting the caves that are involved at their expense and donated funds. They are not trying to close anything of significance and are cooperating with the BLM and grottos fully" and then accuses me... 4. "Where do you come up with these peculiar ideas?"

WELL,

1. I interprete things from my perspective, which is that of a mining historian/mine explorationist. That is how he/I can view a situation like the Candlelight Cave issue here in Utah, and he thinks its a win-win and that the DOGM and BLM have completely cooperated with cavers in supporting and accomplishing wonderful things for him; yet I can view it as a sad loss of mine openings for me and my friends to explore. It is sad that since I have a differing view than his, he concludes that I am the one with peculiar ideas and strange interpretations...

2. The Crystal Ball cave is not up for sale, the ad was relisted with corrected language to explain more precisely what is up for sale--2 unpatented lode claims of approximately 20 acres each. Repeat, the Crystal Ball cave is not for sale...

3. My negative spin on DOGM comes from the fact that they backfill mine openings here in Utah like there's no tomorrow. Caverdale thinks that Candlelight Cave is an example of saving a cave for use by Utah grottos but it is also the story of the loss of mine openings to explore, which is my passion. He says the DOGM advised HIM of their plans to close mine openings in North Tintic East next year, so what is my complaint?.... That ONLY HE and his group was advised. My groups to which I belong were not consulted, and in fact the DOGM refuses to provide me with advanced notice of their actions. Sour grapes? Maybe.. Jealousy, sure, a distinct possibility. But it may also be a violation of anti-trust laws to favor one group over another in the doling out of opportunities to be advised about resource closures. The fact that CaverDale has a relationship with the State in managing caves in Utah may be impacting his ability to see the wrongs I see the State commiting, or at least the favoritism exercised.

4. For my final peculiar idea, see my Open Letter to the Caving Fraternity elsewhere in this forum and at http://www.adoptamine.org.

Until tomorrow...

[batrotter]

Batrotter, you will soon be reduced to the number one person on my "foe" list

And that I will hold in the highest regard.

[wyandottecaver]

livingwest...LOL rest assured that for better or worse I am well known on this forum and know batrotter personally so it's unlikely any regulars will confuse us In all actuality batrotter is a decent guy...he just has a suspicious streak (not uncommon in cavers) and isn't shy about expressing his opinions...also not uncommon.

[Caverdale]

The auction for the claim is indeed back up. View it at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0326741294

Crystal Ball Cave and its speleothems are clearly stated as not included in the auction.

The description and photo clarifies what many of us have suspected. The claimant, Cory Shuman, does not know how to identify minerals. He shows a photo and lists the subject as quartz, a good indicator of possible mineralization. However, it is obviously crystalline calcite, which very, very rarely contains any minerals of value. As posted previously, I've scoured the hillsides around the cave several times. All of the veins he thinks are quartz are actually calcite. Any knowledgeable miner will immediately spot this. He should post the assay results with the auctions if he really wants credibility.