Sit down, I have something to tell you.

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Sit down, I have something to tell you.

Postby rayduke » Dec 11, 2008 6:24 pm

OK, you guys are gonna love this one. I need some help discerning between what is illegal and what is just immoral. Let's pretend that there is a cave, not just any cave, but a cave with an especially unique environment inside. The cave is secret, some old timers and a few lucky younger guys know where it is, but overall it's location remains a mystery to most. One day a rich lady buys the land containing the caves and decides to pump the entrances full of concrete because she is worried about "liability". Possibility #1, there is a well written law specifically forbidding this even when there are no known endangered species inhabiting the cave. Possibility #2, and my faveorite, the EPA will put their boot up her checkbook until the concrete is removed. This is my faveorite because I have seen firsthand how much the EPA will fine a company for dumping waste concrete ON the ground and this example has someone dumping it IN the ground. For all I know, it could lead directly into an aquifer. Just confirming that it is in some way "illegal" won't help me much, but if you could point to a specific law, that would be great ammunition.
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Re: Sit down, I have something to tell you.

Postby Scott McCrea » Dec 11, 2008 7:49 pm

A cave? There was one?

If you go to the EPA, can you prove there was a cave there? Did you make a map? Do any die tracing? Identify other potential entrances?
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Re: Sit down, I have something to tell you.

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Dec 11, 2008 8:04 pm

if she's concerned about liability, offer to gate the cave for her. that way, she can keep access as limited as she likes, presumably allowing your grotto periodic access, and you can sign a waiver every time you go.

as for the "unique environment," we can't really help you answer that without more information. what's the unique part? 20 foot long crystals? and underground motorcycle race track? a civilization of blue people?
"Although it pains me to say it, in this case Jeff is right. Plan accordingly." --Andy Armstrong
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Re: Sit down, I have something to tell you.

Postby Ralph E. Powers » Dec 11, 2008 9:03 pm

Agreed to offer (via the grotto) to gate the cave and to explain how she can control access and can get the sheriff's dept to charge anyone on her property without express written permission for trespassing and b&e if they get into the gate without her key. At least she will feel empowered that she has control over who visits the cave and who doesn't... after all it IS her right.
Claiming a cave has a unique environment is basically the same for almost any cave ... there can be microbes specific to this particular cave but unless they've been proven to cure say... cancer the EPA isn't going to give too much fuss... HOWEVER as previously stated if you can dye trace the water/stream and find it's resurgence is near an important water source then yeah.

Talk nice to her and keep talking nice to her... she may be resistant at first but by inviting her to a Grotto meeting and just *happen* to have a safety officer lecture that night she might be impressed enough to feel that you guys aren't a bunch of yay-hoos wanting to gee-haw their way through her cave and end up getting hurt in the process.
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Re: Sit down, I have something to tell you.

Postby rayduke » Dec 11, 2008 9:42 pm

As I've said in previous threads, I'm all about working with people and education, and gates, but in this case it is too late for that. The concrete has been poured and without heavy equipment and things that go boom, no one is getting in there again. This lady was educated about her options and all of the great reasons why she should not go through with this, but it didn't matter. If it turns out that she broke no laws an was within her rights then there is nothing that can be done. Well, actually there is but I won't get into that on here. :shhh:
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Re: Sit down, I have something to tell you.

Postby wendy » Dec 11, 2008 11:22 pm

what state is the cave in?

Were there any endangered cave life in there?
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Re: Sit down, I have something to tell you.

Postby l lambert » Dec 11, 2008 11:29 pm

Are you sure this is the only entry into the system? Wanna buy a map? :big grin:
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Re: Sit down, I have something to tell you.

Postby rayduke » Dec 12, 2008 12:48 am

I am positive that the entrances which were buried are the only CURRENT entrances for now. :big grin:
I would guess that there is unique cave life in there, I never got a chance to go because I always thought there would be another day :doh:
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