Cavechat.org

Sorry folks, just an edit

rptyd wrote:http://www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com/jhbnyc/gifs/38185.htm This turkey also has several specimens from cave in rock,Illinois. These did not come from the surface, nor were they conveniently dug up.

Cave In Rock is the name of an Illinois town, in the now mostly shuttered Illinois fluorite mining district including the towns of Hardin and Rosiclare. Yes, there is a big cave there. But it is wide open, is flooded by the Ohio River, and hardly a source for fine mineral specimens. Fluorite is calcium fluoride, and yes, it is found in limestone in association with other carbonates.

I agree, the Virginia specimen looks suspiciously cavey.

Just to add on to Teresa's comment about Cave-in-Rock...

Those fluorspar specimens more than likely come from the old mines from Cave-in-Rock, Rosiclare, and Shawneetown. Access to those mines really isn't that difficult and collecting is not illegal, when given permission. In fact, when I worked with the ISGS, we took field trips for the public to those areas. In terms of Cave-in-Rock proper, you're not going to find anything in there. Like Teresa said, the area gets flooded and conditions are not right for cave formations. The cave is well trafficked. It is a great place to see unconformities.

In terms of the Virginia specimen, the information is pretty vague. I'm not condoning the sale of speleothems, but to put a little historical perspective on this, it was not long ago that speleothems were actually sold in gift shops of commercial caves. It has only been relatively recently that regulations have been put in place to prohibit the collecting of speleothems from caves. If indeed the specimen was collected in the 1950's, it would fall easily in the timeframe before regulations,

so to play devil's advocate, is it illegal to sell a specimen collected "legally"?

I know it is a can of worms and I'm thankful I don't have to decide!

Just my two-cents...

-Troy

Illinois Caver wrote:If indeed the specimen was collected in the 1950's, it would fall easily in the timeframe before regulations, so to play devil's advocate, is it illegal to sell a specimen collected "legally"?

Depends on which state you are in. In some states like Virginia, it is indeed illegal to sell speleothems or to export them for sale out of the state. In other states like New York (where this person's business is based), selling speleothems may be legal.

See this page for state-by-state cave law links. New York is not listed.

Virginia:

§ 10.1-1007. Sale of speleothems; penalties.

It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or offer for sale any speleothems in this Commonwealth, or to export them for sale outside the Commonwealth. Any violation of this section shall be punished as a Class 1 misdemeanor.

(1979, c. 252, § 10-150.17; 1982, c. 81; 1988, c. 891.)

Illinois:

(525 ILCS 5/6)
Sec. 6. It shall be unlawful for any person, without the express
written permission of the land owner, to:
(a) Willfully or knowingly break, break off, crack, carve upon,
write, burn, mark upon, remove, or in any manner destroy, disturb,
deface, mar, or harm the surfaces of any cave or any natural material
which may be found therein, whether attached or broken, including
speleothems, speleogens and sedimentary deposits.
<snip>
(g) Remove any natural or cultural resources found within any cave.

I couldn't find anything specifically preventing the sale of speleothems in Illinois.

I want to thank all of you for your polite, informative input. Gives me a bit of faith. That speleo sure is in nice, pristine condition for being almost 60 years in our environment.

interestingly,

there probably isn't any aragonite left..it reverts to calcite when exposed to surface conditions