Cave Conservation Cafe Invitation

Cave conservation issues, techniques, questions. Also visit the NSS Cave Conservation and Management Section.

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Postby Squirrel Girl » Oct 20, 2007 4:14 pm

graveleye wrote:When it comes to any government attention to a cause or subject, a degree of suspicion is warranted. That's also why there should be a contingent of NSS people involved here - to make sure some hair-brained ideas are not allowed to spawn.
I have had a few really bad experiences with land management with the guvment. But on the whole, I've had many, many more positive experiences.

I'm no Polyana about these things. But I wonder if you guys just haven't ever taken the time to actually do any volunteering and worked with guvment people and seen positive things happen? Or have you just let those few bad examples stick in your mind and let them crowd out the those times that when things work well.

It makes me think of the news. If it bleeds it leads. They don't run news stories when things go according to plan and no problems erupt. So if there's a time when something doesn't work to your liking, you remember that one (or two or three) case(s) and then aren't aware that everything else is moving along just as it should.
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Postby tncaver » Oct 20, 2007 10:19 pm

Seems like there have been some really good decisions made in
the past regarding Western Caves, such as those in the Guadalupes.
Hopefully that will continue.
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Postby Squirrel Girl » Oct 21, 2007 5:25 am

tncaver wrote:Seems like there have been some really good decisions made in
the past regarding Western Caves, such as those in the Guadalupes.
Hopefully that will continue.

The other thing I've noticed with that time tends to move *very* slowly with the guvment. At least on the lower levels. Ya get a good idea (i.e., let's build a trail). Everyone agrees. Years later it happens. It's not so much that they're lazy, it's that there's other people besides our personal advocacy group (in my case mountain biking) that need to have input, and layers of management, and finances, and, and, and. So ya just gotta have patience.

And to sort of go along with those others have said before... My view on politics in general--at it fits with advocacy--is that you may make an effort for change, and sometimes you won't win. That's the way life goes. Get over it. But if you *don't* keep trying you will *never* win. So you have to keep making the effort. You will win sometimes. Every case of a park/forest being saved from development, a species being saved from extinction, or logical cave management has been because someone kept at and keep working away.

There's also strength in numbers which is what Cheryl and Gordon are trying to drum up. I'm just not sure this is the venue where numbers are going to get us anywhere.
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Postby Teresa » Oct 23, 2007 11:14 am

I look forward to the report from the Cave Conservation Cafe.

Just FYI, if you don't know, Mr. Jerry Trout of the USFS is also one of US! As is Jim Goodbar, Dale Pate, a number of the people at Mammoth Cave, Timpanogos, Wind and Jewel Caves, Oregon Caves NM, etc., etc.

It's not largely an 'us versus them' thing. They are us, and we are them. Obviously, "they" have to work within the constraints of their day jobs, and cannot get things done the caver way all the time. (Nor should they-- the caves have a much bigger constituency than just the NSS.)

I suspect a majority of the NCKMS agency attendees are also now, or have been NSS members. That is the glory of the NCKMS and meetings like this one-- it actually does promote communication on a personal level between agencies, NGOs, regular cavers and cave and karst consultants.

Glad to hear this meeting is happening today. I hope much good comes of it.
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Postby tncaver » Oct 24, 2007 2:31 pm

So how did it go? Let's hear some news about this
event.
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Postby tncaver » Oct 25, 2007 9:20 am

Silence usually indicates that no one wants to
break the bad news. I hope that is not the case
this time.
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Postby tncaver » Oct 25, 2007 5:31 pm

I've been looking forward to the Cave Conservation report too.
Unfortunately, now that the event has happened, there is no
report. What gives? No good news? I hope not. This group
was certainly eager to get attendees but is does not seem eager
to tell what is going on. WHY?
Last edited by tncaver on Oct 29, 2007 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby NZcaver » Oct 25, 2007 6:12 pm

Relax - it was only 2 days ago. Think of how long it takes the average caver to submit a mere trip report (if at all). :wink:

Give it time, and maybe someone will fill us in.
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Postby tncaver » Oct 25, 2007 6:35 pm

It only takes a moment to log in to this forum and report
what is going on anywhere in the US and the world.
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Postby Cheryl Jones » Oct 25, 2007 8:35 pm

Yo! Patience grasshopper! There are lots of things going on in life that demand priority. Gasp! :eek: As amazing as that may seem.

The event went well, opened important doors, and, I think, launched a new initiative for cave and karst resource with the USFS. :wtg: A very successful couple of days.

30-40 representatives from various federal agencies attended, including some folks in influential, high ranking positions, plus about 25 cavers and the panel and speakers. Cavers included NSS Board members, past officers, a past president, committee chairmen, as well as grotto officers and noted speleologists. This was a great turnout for DC, especially considering that the event occupied most of the morning. Upon arriving at the USDA auditorium, each attendee was given a folder with copies of several cave and conservation-related articles and NSS brochures, and a name tag. The NSS display boards were set up in the auditorium foyer with brochures available.

After the presentations, film, and panel discussion, most of the audience moved on to the reception for sandwiches and soft drinks and lots of mingling and discussions for over an hour. BCI and NCKRI displays were in this area and Sandy Trout was on one side of the room demonstrating karst hydrology with a groundwater model (similar to this http://groundwater.unl.edu/karst.htm) to interested people.

The NSS was pretty visible throughout the event as a major partner, with brochures, signs, the display, and credits during presentations...and of course cavers with "NSS" on their name tags. :kewl:

Very importantly, the NSS was involved in several meetings with high-ranking USFS officials and two congressmen's staff the day before and the afternoon following the CC Cafe. We were pleased with their interest and responses, the ideas generated, and the commitments made. I'm not going into details for pretty obvious reasons. Suffice it to say that the cafe initiative was an excellent springboard and we have high hopes for all that may result. More meetings are in the works, as are cave awareness events at some other agencies.

Thanks to the Hoosier National Forest, Indiana Karst Conservancy, USFS, and NCKRI for a very successful couple of days.

Cheryl
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Postby NZcaver » Oct 25, 2007 8:39 pm

What - no juicy details about huge conspiracies? :tonguecheek:

Thanks for the report and your participation, Cheryl. :kewl:
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Postby Cheryl Jones » Oct 25, 2007 8:41 pm

NZcaver wrote:What - no juicy details about huge conspiracies? :tonguecheek:


:notlistening:

:laughing:
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Postby tncaver » Oct 26, 2007 7:55 am

Cheryl wrote:
"I'm not going into details for pretty obvious reasons."

Obvious or not, NSS members would like to know what this
meeting was about. Not just who was there and how much
fun it was. An overview would be greatly appreciated.
You can save the details for the NSS news but I think the
membership deserves and overview of the purpose of the
meeting.
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Postby NZcaver » Oct 26, 2007 11:25 am

See this link. (It's not a post-event report, but does give a little more information on what the Cave Conservation Cafe was all about.)

It also gives a link to cavebiota.com where you can download the movie they showed at the CCC. That one costs money, but there are a number of short "webumentaries" you can download for free there as well... if anyone is interested.

I don't recall these links being posted earlier, and they were brought to my attention so I figured I'd pass them on.
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Postby tncaver » Oct 29, 2007 9:27 am

Hi, Grasshopper here.
Sorry for being so anxious concerning the Conservation Cafe meeting.
I hope someone who was lucky enough to attend will give a report
about the purpose of the meeting when they can find the time.
Cheryl's report was nice but left out everything that had to do with
the purpose and accomplishments of the meeting.
The NSS Conservation issue doesn't come out for a long time.
It would be nice to hear the highlights of what was accomplished
at the meeting and why it was held.

Cheryl did state: "The event went well, opened important doors, and, I think, launched a new initiative for cave and karst resource with the USFS." She also mentioned that there was a panel discussion and
that ideas were generated.

I'm sure NSS members (including myself) would like to know what the
new initiative is and what the panel discussion was about. Just the highlights. No need to give a detailed report.
Please.
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