The Lechuguilla Waste Question

[Ralph E. Powers]

At our last grotto meeting we had gotten a wonderful presentation about Lechuguilla Cave (NM). One of the slides however did bring up a question (at least in my mind) on how could the park-service, conservationalist, cavers, biologist and anyone else involved could've allowed it to happen.
In the early days of the cave's exploration human waste products (fluid and solid) weren't disposed of properly. Several methods were tried, including but not limited to burrito bags and pee bottles. But certian areas of the cave were deemed sacrifice and thus bodily waste products were left there.
As I understand it piles of bags and bottles and what-nots are still in the cave.

Discussion began about why isn't the waste being removed? Why couldn't a team of volunteers go into the cave with the express purpose of removing the waste? Such a team would only need to be in the cave for two days. 1 day to get to the waste site, sleep overnight to rest up and then haul as much of it as possible out of the cave the next day. I said that I knew of four or five guys right off the top of my head that would do it just for the priviledge of entering the cave when politics would bar them otherwise. They're vertically compentent enough and careful enough cavers to ensure that their presence doesn't impact the cave more than any other survey/photography/scientific trip would.

Was told/argued that the sheer weight of x number of gallons of waste fluids would deter most people. I countered argued that it wouldn't have to be hauled out all in one trip now would it? Also was told that not everyone would be willing to haul that *crap* out of the cave. True... not everyone but certian ones would be.

I know that there were many cavers who aren't guilty of leaving their by-products behind in this national treasure. But there are many cavers who are guilty. I find it shameful that this has happened to this jewel. Even if one corner is sacraficed it's still not a very conservationally minded thing to do is it?

Made me wonder why it was not deemed manditory (among all the other manditories) for all cavers to pack out what they packed in (even if the composition of it has changed).

So question is does that waste just continue to sit there in the cave in the ziploc baggies waiting to be never touched?

Does anyone have any ideas on how to get this *ahem* crap out of the cave? I've heard that you can still smell it even if you're an hour or 45 minutes away from it. Pretty damn shameful if you ask me.

[graveleye]

I volunteer.......Ralph Powers to pack out the poop!



true, thats pretty disgusting, but you can probably see why no one wants to tackle a beast as nasty as a pile of poop.

[Phil Winkler]

This same situation occurs in many expedition-level caves such as Holloch and the Pierre St. Martin among others. In Holloch the solid waste pile near Bivouac II is frequently covered with spent carbide to hasten decomposition and dampen the odor. Poor practice I'm sure, but the simple act of entering any cave causes some damage to the environment. It's like the Pogo statement: We have met the enemy and it is us.

True story: The dump in Holloch is at the bottom of a small ravine near Bviouac II, about 2 miles into the cave. A rope is anchored in the ceiling by the edge and has a roll of paper on it. In practice you hang onto the rope while squatting over the side to do your business.

So, imagine my surprise when I visited the latrine area to find the rope missing! I turned to look into the waste pit and saw what looked like a snow angel pattern in the waste. Yep..someone had fallen backwards right into it when the rope broke.

I almost split my sides laughing and headed back to the Bivouac with the tale. No one there would own up to being the guilty party either.

The mystery continues til this day.

[volica]

Phil!
You made my day!!!!!

[killian]

Love the story Phil. even thou i think your story was full of crap..lol

[Ralph E. Powers]

So basically this thought of trying to preserve and clean up what is essentially a cavers' messy oversight is just a joke then eh?


'mmm okay.
We'll just leave it all there and let what unknown microbes and bacteria fester and ruin with whatever possible cross contamination of potential leukemia/cancer killing bacteria yet to be discovered in this cave.

[BrianC]

Hey Ralph! Just think, The new bacteria might become the new cancer fighting stuff we have been waiting for! If that is the case we should start looking for dump sites in all the TAG caves now before they are all taken!

[BrianC]

Actually if a dump cleanup could happen sign me up!

[Grandpa Caver]

So basically this thought of trying to preserve and clean up what is essentially a cavers' messy oversight is just a joke then eh?


'mmm okay.
We'll just leave it all there and let what unknown microbes and bacteria fester and ruin with whatever possible cross contamination of potential leukemia/cancer killing bacteria yet to be discovered in this cave.

My feelings exactly! There has to be a better way...even in project caves and if prior abuse in these caves cant be entirely cleaned up, an attempt should still be made wherever possible.

[Evan G]

So basically this thought of trying to preserve and clean up what is essentially a cavers' messy oversight is just a joke then eh?


'mmm okay.
We'll just leave it all there and let what unknown microbes and bacteria fester and ruin with whatever possible cross contamination of potential leukemia/cancer killing bacteria yet to be discovered in this cave.

My feelings exactly! There has to be a better way...even in project caves and if prior abuse in these caves cant be entirely cleaned up, an attempt should still be made wherever possible.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa there!!!! First off I would like to know about these "Artifact Dumps".

First off, I was on the Lechuguilla Cave Project (LCP) from 88 till 92, then returned back 97 and I can tell you from first hand experience that dung was always removed, that is where burrito bags came from (Hecker came up with the idea)! There where piss stations in very designated areas, these do smell.

In the first stage of Lechuguilla exploration the trips where 24 to 72 hours long with no base camp. You slept very little (Maybe 2-4hours) on these trips and most of the time very dehydrated so rarely did you have to go number 2. If you did, you did it in a burrito bag. If you puked because of dehydration, you did it in the burrito bag. If you lost a finger it went into the burrito bag. Except for urine, NO BODY PARTS WERE ALLOWED LEFT IN THE CAVE, INCLUDING #2. If you didn’t comply, you where not asked back. There were some cavers that were not asked back, but not because of taking a dump.

In the Rainbow Room which is the end of the Western Borehole a team did find a dung heap and it was removed. It was also put on a stand and given back to its owner.

During LCP the Cave manager was Ron Kerbo. We had a meeting of LCP member cavers that were present:

Section on defecating in the cave: (someone was complaining because they didn't like burrito bags)

Caver: Bats crap in the cave why can't I?
Ron: If you find a 150 LBS bat in the cave, I'll let you crap in the cave.

That was the end of that.

I know of NO ONE that did not comply with that rule.

During the Filming of “Underground Mysteries”, I personally haul out a five gallon Nalgene piss bottle on my back from the Chandler Ballroom, twice. We had a understanding with the park service that NO/NONE/NOTHING waste matter or human artifact would be left in the cave and on final sweep NOTHING was.

I want to know more about these HEAPS. Because what it sounds like is someone currently being lazy and not fessing up to it. Do you want to why I think that is the truth? Because in the four-year stint of going down there I watched some of the original orange flagging decompose, any stray dung heap would be long gone.

[wendy]

So basically this thought of trying to preserve and clean up what is essentially a cavers' messy oversight is just a joke then eh?


'mmm okay.
We'll just leave it all there and let what unknown microbes and bacteria fester and ruin with whatever possible cross contamination of potential leukemia/cancer killing bacteria yet to be discovered in this cave.

My feelings exactly! There has to be a better way...even in project caves and if prior abuse in these caves cant be entirely cleaned up, an attempt should still be made wherever possible.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa there!!!! First off I would like to know about these "Artifact Dumps".

First off, I was on the Lechuguilla Cave Project (LCP) from 88 till 92, then returned back 97 and I can tell you from first hand experience that dung was always removed, that is where burrito bags came from (Hecker came up with the idea)! There where piss stations in very designated areas, these do smell.

In the first stage of Lechuguilla exploration the trips where 24 to 72 hours long with no base camp. You slept very little (Maybe 2-4hours) on these trips and most of the time very dehydrated so rarely did you have to go number 2. If you did, you did it in a burrito bag. If you puked because of dehydration, you did it in the burrito bag. If you lost a finger it went into the burrito bag. Except for urine, NO BODY PARTS WERE ALLOWED LEFT IN THE CAVE, INCLUDING #2. If you didn’t comply, you where not asked back. There were some cavers that were not asked back, but not because of taking a dump.

In the Rainbow Room which is the end of the Western Borehole a team did find a dung heap and it was removed. It was also put on a stand and given back to its owner.

During LCP the Cave manager was Ron Kerbo. We had a meeting of LCP member cavers that were present:

Section on defecating in the cave: (someone was complaining because they didn't like burrito bags)

Caver: Bats crap in the cave why can't I?
Ron: If you find a 150 LBS bat in the cave, I'll let you crap in the cave.

That was the end of that.

I know of NO ONE that did not comply with that rule.

During the Filming of “Underground Mysteries”, I personally haul out a five gallon Nalgene piss bottle on my back from the Chandler Ballroom, twice. We had a understanding with the park service that NO/NONE/NOTHING waste matter or human artifact would be left in the cave and on final sweep NOTHING was.

I want to know more about these HEAPS. Because what it sounds like is someone currently being lazy and not fessing up to it. Do you want to why I think that is the truth? Because in the four-year stint of going down there I watched some of the original orange flagging decompose, any stray dung heap would be long gone.

So why is it ok to pee in the cave and leave it?

[Evan G]

So why is it ok to pee in the cave and leave it?

The Park Service allow us to pee in the cave. We carried as much out as possible, but with all the gear Verty, many many batteries (pre LED, I carried 8 - 12 D cells for my light (Modified Rosalight) for a 36-48 hour trip), food, quick bivy (mainly a survival blanket) emergency pack, survey gear. The packs weighed from 25-35 lbs. Many times coming out I would start dumping water (nothing else) to lighted the load. From EF junction out it is all up hill and steep. I think Allison and Burger had the fastest time coming out at 22 mins from EF to the top of entrance.

There were many experiment on dehydrating pee: From a powdered bleach and kitty litter combo to silca gel in a Nalgene bottle. I used the powered bleach combo.

Also someone came up with the idea that gypsum broke down urine. I never believed that, but they where the scientists. That is where the pee stations where.

There where many arguements on about the pee issue. I don't think it has ever been resolved. I don't know what they do now.

[cob]

So why is it ok to pee in the cave and leave it?

The Park Service allow us to pee in the cave. We carried as much out as possible,

To elaborate a little bit on what Evan has said (LCP was previous to my days there)...

As it was explained to me, dehydration was the major reason for the designated piss spots. They had tried many different things (including I was told, 5 gal. buckets, which once filled.... well there it is. Tho I never personally saw one) They tried having people haul out all their urine, but that gets very heavy, very quick, so cavers started cutting back on their water intake (and so, their urine outtake) which led to some people becoming dehydrated, which led to several... "incidents" of possibly bad judgement, possibly bad coordination, etc, which could have led to rescues.

So the designated pee spots came to be seen as the least of all possible sins. #2 has ALWAYS been carried out.

I can not say if the previous is gospel or not, just what I was told by others.

For my ownself, my first few expeditions I followed the lead of others, and left a fair amount of urine in the designated pee spots. Then I went on one with Randy Brown who carried out all his urine. After thinking about it, I decided I could too, and did so on the rest of my expeditions, including a 7 day trip to the far west.

For those who would say, "Well if you guys can...." let me say this: Dehydration. People will naturally try to eliminate as much weight as possible. On that 7 day trip I came out with 7 and a half litres of urine, and it kicked my ass. I took forever climbing up Boulder Falls. That was 16lbs of extra weight in additon to all my other stuff. If I had been coming out of the far east, there is no way I ever could have done it. And maybe I shouldn't have done it then.

This is something every caver has to decide for him/herself, based on his/her own physical capabilities. There is no easy, one size fits all answer.


tom

[Evan G]

including I was told, 5 gal. buckets, which once filled.... well there it is. Tho I never personally saw one

I saw one and it was FULL to the brim with everything, YUK. I tried picking it up and it was heavy! I heard they have to sipon them off into small containers then haul them out.

I agree with cob, Dehydration was ALWAYS a problem, including on the surface.

[cob]

I agree with cob, Dehydration was ALWAYS a problem, including on the surface.

To explain a little bit further for those who have never been to a cave like Lech. It is warm (68 degrees) and of course humid. To move is to sweat. (I remember my first trip with the Durango Dudes, they ALL had these little battery operated fans, "Cool..." I thought, and never went without after that)

I have heard that the darker your urine is, the more dehydrated you are. I have also heard that if you ever stop peeing, you are in trouble. So I always took a drink at every stop, usually 2 or 3 (I am always drinking water on the job). EVERY time I had to go pee, it came out looking like iced tea. Not a dark lemonade, but iced tea, and a strong one at that.

nuff said.

tom

ps: last I heard, the "pee policy" remains the same.