The Lechuguilla Waste Question

[NZcaver]

Instead of using a water purifier for drinking water, why not use it as a Urine purifier that extracts the waste biological material out of the urine, leaves it in the membrane of the purifier and separates the water.

<snip>

Most backpacking filters are very light weight and I highly doubt that five or six gallons of urine will clog a new filter.

Nice idea - in theory.

Some of us "unofficially" tried this exact method in Lech a few years ago. This was on a 4-day trip, and (FYI) the standard procedure in camp is to pee and poo in the designated location (in burrito bags and bottles, of course), then collect up all the solids and as much liquid (weight) as you can safely carry when you leave. The remainder of the pee gets dumped in the appropriate place, and you quickly scamper out of the area trying to keep ahead of the smell. (The smell generally dissipates within a day or three, by the way.)

Anyway, our twist on the plot was to run the "overstock" of our urine through a water filter (a First Need type, if memory serves) before dumping it - thereby hopefully leaving a product that's slightly less harmful to the cave than the same urine untreated. Two of our team volunteered for the special mission, and began pumping urine from bag to bag (or bottle to bag). The pee went from a being a dark yellow color, to clear. I'm not sure the urea and uric acid got filtered out, but some of the content certainly did. However after just the first few liters, the filter clogged up completely and ceased working.



It's possible a different type of filtering may be more effective, so I think this idea warrants further experimentation.

[NZcaver]

As I understand it piles of bags and bottles and what-nots are still in the cave.

I'd be interested to find out the source of this information. I could be wrong, but as far as I'm aware there's nothing of this magnitude laying around in Lech.

[bigalpha]

NZ - don't they make tablets that you can drop into a liquid, much like an alka-seltzer?

I know it takes up space in a pack, but what about using something like a Brita filter?

[Evan G]

It's possible a different type of filtering may be more effective, so I think this idea warrants further experimentation.

It is your filter. The first need water filter is well not a very good system. The filter is sealed so it cannot be inspected. I had a first need and used it on a 5 day backpacking trip that ended up being 3 day.(Guess why)
I think a PUR hiker would do the job.


http://tinyurl.com/2odtxk
The filter can be inspected and replaced.

I've put tanic (bracken) water through mine and it did a good job [still tasted horrible]. Plus I also have a MSR filter which would work wonderfully, but a NO URINE label is on it.

[Anonymous_Coward]

I don't know of anywhere in Lechuguilla where there are bags and bottles lying around waiting to be hauled out. The park doesn't allow anything to be left behind except liquid waste. On trips of three days or less, you must haul out all liquid as well. But I think I know how you got confused. During the expedition, people store waste in bottles and bags in the pee spot, but no containers are left behind. It sounds like you saw a photo of the waste during the trip, but you can be sure that it doesn't look like that now. Even the smell goes away between the trips. When you first get to camp, it smells fine. As long as everyone is careful, the pee spot doesn't stink until the urine gets dumped on the last day.

[Anonymous_Coward]

The evaporation and filter ideas sound good, but have both been tried. They don't work in Lech. Just ask the people that had to haul all that non-evaporated urine out of there.

[bigalpha]

What about using a system like a diaper? Not that anyone would be wearing a diaper ... but using the liner from a diaper. It can hold a lot of liquid, and keep it contained. Then you dont have to worry about bag asploding ....

I dont know of any other ways to deal with urine in a cave.... I figured filtering it would be the best way to deal with it.

[Evan G]

The evaporation and filter ideas sound good, but have both been tried.

Evaporation is a horrible idea because it will not work. The filter idea will work but it needs tested more than once. Trying is not doing, there is a away.

[Hazel]

Ralph,

There aren't piles of waste and baggies lying around - the Park in very strict regarding removing all waste from the cave, except some liquid waste on long trips.

There is no easy solution to the urine problem - the problem is chemical and standard filters, activate charcol, etc. will not remove the nitrates that are the problem. Reverse osmosis is a potential solution, but the membranes cannot effectively filter the volumes involved (as seen from a previous poster).

The Park is not ignoring the issue and has invested time, money and recruited a number of scientist in order to come up with a solution. Folks are working on it. Hopefully we'll come up with something soon!

Cheers,

Hazel

[Teresa]

Here's a thought--

http://www.incinolet.com/aboutus_2.htm

Now, I know this isn't ready for Lechuguilla prime time, but this might be a starting place for some innovative engineering, in terms of making it site constructable, smaller, run on less battery, perhaps make it propane powered, etc.

Apparently these things are suitable for RVs.
PS I don't work for the company, just ran across it on the web one day.

[Realms]

What about using a system like a diaper? Not that anyone would be wearing a diaper ... but using the liner from a diaper. It can hold a lot of liquid, and keep it contained. Then you dont have to worry about bag asploding ....

I dont know of any other ways to deal with urine in a cave.... I figured filtering it would be the best way to deal with it.

thats what sodium polyacrylate is used for ;-)

[Ralph E. Powers]

Been searching on the net for a product ... pah! Found it... called... Travel John. Used this product before and carry a couple in my caving pack... turns out that ladies are the ones that use it more They love it (see pics and you'll know why.
What really makes this product work is that it's non-toxic, odorless, spill proof gel instantly gels after absorption of liquid thus making it leak-proof http://www.traveljohn.com/1-1-1.php ... they also have a solid waste product http://www.traveljohn.com/1-1-3.php I'll swear by the urine product but haven't found the solid in any stores. Found them in K-marts and Big 5 stores.

This is a great additon to any cave pack... it packs very small and can be stored in a gallon zip-loc bag (rolled up and secured with a rubber band before use) for double security after use for transport out of the cave. Weight is probably less than actual liquid. Really good stuff... great for those long drives to/from a cave as well.

[Realms]

heh heh i like the graphics on the packaging. Ahh also another case of sodium polyacrylate. You can buy the stuff by the gallon at sciencekit one table spoon will absorb about 1 quart (not that I drain out a quart at the latrine but it give you an idea of the properties) I think the ratio is it will absorb 800 times its own weight. We always laughed at the idea of pranking the neighbor and dumping a few gallons in his pool.

[ron_miller]

I gave the slide show that generated this thread, I have been caving on multi-day survey and exploration expeditions in Lech since 1991. Apparently Ralph misunderstood what I said about this issue, and I need to set the record straight.

To be clear, there are NO WASTE PILES in Lech. The status of human waste management is as follows:

SOLID WASTE - As other subsequent posters have correctly pointed out, solid waste is currently, and has always been, packed out; folks commonly call the filled ziploc bags "cave burritos".

LIQUID WASTE - On short trips, all urine is packed out. On multi-day trips, common practice now is to temporarily store urine in bags at the urine dump (the photo that Ralph saw), in order to keep the odor down while staying in the nearby camp. On the morning of the last day, these bags are emptied into the urine dump (there is one near each camp) and the empty bags are packed out.

All Lech cavers and the National Park Service would prefer not to dump urine in Lech. Lots of ideas have been tried or considered - none has proven practical. It is my understanding that this is an area of active research.

Any solution will have to be energy efficient (all energy sources must be carried into, and out of (if not consumed), the cave), lightweight, cave- and caver-proof, cost-effective, and cannot add anything new (e.g. chemicals or biologicals) into the cave environment.

As Hazel correctly pointed out, this is not something that mechanical devices such as backpacking-type water filters can fix, because the problem is solutes (mainly dissolved nitrogen compounds like ammonia/ammonium, nitrates, etc.), which are far smaller than the 0.2 micron nominal filter size, and in fact are of similar size to water molecules themselves. Other suggested solutions and problems, as I (perhaps imperfectly) understand them, include:

Evaporation - tried in 80s, doesn't work in near 100% relative humidity.
Distillation - energy requirements, reliability, time, odors.
Reverse Osmosis - clogs easily, high rejection, energy requirements.
Ion exchange - not weight efficient.
Chemical oxidation - safety, weight issues.
Biological degradation - potential to add new biota to cave environment.
Carbon adsorption - not weight efficient.
Pack it out - not weight or volume efficient. Assuming 1.5 - 2 L/day, you'd add roughly 2.8-3.7 gallons (23-31 lbs) to an already very large (3,000 - 4,000 cubic inches) and heavy (40-50 lb) cave pack.
Piss sherpas - not weight efficient (sherpas have to pee as well), would double current caver impact, risk of spills, unlikely to have a long-term reliable source of qualified volunteers and/or head sherpas.

NASA has dumped (no pun intended) enormous $$ into this issue, because having to carry water to the Space Station sucks up huge amounts of payload capacity. However, their best solution to date, http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/30oct_eclss.htm, weighs 1.5 tons, is the size of two refrigerators, must cost a mint, and, most importantly, is highly energy-intensive - not a problem when you have essentially unlimited solar energy available, but there's not a lot of solar rays beneath 800 feet of limestone.

There may be a solution out there, and we're all open to new ideas and fresh perspectives.

[bigalpha]

Evaporation - tried in 80s, doesn't work in near 100% relative humidity.
Distillation - energy requirements, reliability, time, odors.
Reverse Osmosis - clogs easily, high rejection, energy requirements.
Ion exchange - not weight efficient.
Chemical oxidation - safety, weight issues.
Biological degradation - potential to add new biota to cave environment.
Carbon adsorption - not weight efficient.
Pack it out - not weight or volume efficient. Assuming 1.5 - 2 L/day, you'd add roughly 2.8-3.7 gallons (23-31 lbs) to an already very large (3,000 - 4,000 cubic inches) and heavy (40-50 lb) cave pack.
Piss sherpas - not weight efficient (sherpas have to pee as well), would double current caver impact, risk of spills, unlikely to have a long-term reliable source of qualified volunteers and/or head sherpas.

...

There may be a solution out there, and we're all open to new ideas and fresh perspectives.

Well, given that list; it seems that the best and most efficient way to take care of the pee problem is to have an additive that negates the negative-ness of the dissolved solutes creating a neutral solution that won't adversely affect the cave environment.

ATM, the best solution so far is the powder that can suck up 800 times it's weight. It's like Bentonite.