The Lechuguilla Waste Question

Cave conservation issues, techniques, questions. Also visit the NSS Cave Conservation and Management Section.

Moderator: Moderators

Postby Evan G » Mar 14, 2007 6:18 pm

Durango Dudes


:rofl: Andy and LURK crew. I bet that was experience!!! I saw them wear mini skirts (too keep cool) and Andy with his long hair the butt of panty hose to keep his hair from flying everywhere.

They also had headphone speakers glued into the helmets so they could listen to tunage on the way in.

I loved it :rofl: Sorry off topic!
Evan G
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mar 12, 2006 2:52 pm
Location: Breckenridge, CO
Name: EEG
NSS #: 28685
Primary Grotto Affiliation: NRMG
  

Postby Realms » Mar 14, 2007 9:41 pm

hmmmm I wonder if sodium polyacrylate might help. We use it a lot at work to manage liquids.
never stop imagining what could someday come to pass...
User avatar
Realms
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 273
Joined: Sep 19, 2005 8:11 pm
Location: Huntsville,Alabama
  

Postby bigalpha » Mar 14, 2007 9:46 pm

Realms wrote:hmmmm I wonder if sodium polyacrylate might help. We use it a lot at work to manage liquids.


Wouldn't that be just as heavy as just peeing in a bag?
User avatar
bigalpha
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 611
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 3:04 pm
Location: Central TN
  

Postby Realms » Mar 14, 2007 9:48 pm

yeah it would. just might make it easier to work with.
never stop imagining what could someday come to pass...
User avatar
Realms
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 273
Joined: Sep 19, 2005 8:11 pm
Location: Huntsville,Alabama
  

Postby bigalpha » Mar 14, 2007 11:23 pm

What about using that stuff, then letting it dry out? Would that work?
User avatar
bigalpha
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 611
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 3:04 pm
Location: Central TN
  

Postby Evan G » Mar 14, 2007 11:56 pm

BA wrote:What about using that stuff, then letting it dry out? Would that work?


In a cave? Most caves are a 100% humidity, I don't think there be much evaporation. But good try.

Truly to come up with a solution, we need all the ideas possible. Because one idea may set fire to another idea.
Evan G
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mar 12, 2006 2:52 pm
Location: Breckenridge, CO
Name: EEG
NSS #: 28685
Primary Grotto Affiliation: NRMG
  

Postby bigalpha » Mar 15, 2007 12:34 am

Evan wrote:
BA wrote:What about using that stuff, then letting it dry out? Would that work?


In a cave? Most caves are a 100% humidity, I don't think there be much evaporation. But good try.


Really? Not to be a naysayer, but that sounds a little over the top. Surely, most caves cannot have a humidity that high.

Anyways, could always take some of those purification pills and purify your urine. Then, you could drink it once or twice and save the weight in your pack.
User avatar
bigalpha
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 611
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 3:04 pm
Location: Central TN
  

Postby Evan G » Mar 15, 2007 1:38 am

:rofl:

Anyways, could always take some of those purification pills and purify your urine. Then, you could drink it once or twice and save the weight in your pack.


Let's see how well that waterfilter REALLY works! No thanks! But I like the way you think.

On Cave Humidity:
From Introduction to Caves and Karst
http://tinyurl.com/ytpfyh
Relative Humidity

Seeping water moistens a cave's ceilings, walls, and floors. It is not surprising then that the air in most caves is nearly saturated with water vapor, that is, the relative humidity is close to 100%. Constant temperature at the inner part of a cave permits high humidity to be maintained indefinitely.

Near the entrances to caves, however, the humidity may be lower than the interior portions of caves. This is because cave entrances are the interface between the surface and underground. Outside humidity is usually lower than in caves, and cave temperatures differ from outside temperatures. A fall in temperature will increase the relative humidity; a rise in temperature will decrease it.


Wind Cave SD http://tinyurl.com/2esmwm
From NPS.gov wrote:Natural cave humidity is probably about 95%-100%.


etc.
Evan G
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mar 12, 2006 2:52 pm
Location: Breckenridge, CO
Name: EEG
NSS #: 28685
Primary Grotto Affiliation: NRMG
  

Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Mar 15, 2007 1:46 am

Evan wrote::rofl:

Anyways, could always take some of those purification pills and purify your urine. Then, you could drink it once or twice and save the weight in your pack.


Let's see how well that waterfilter REALLY works! No thanks! But I like the way you think.


You could filter it or treat it somehow and not drink it? I don't know how wet Lech is but a little extra water shouldn't worry things, the chlorine, iodine or whatever used to treat water might have negative cave impacts so some sort of filter is probably better. How do water treatment plants treat urine maybe there is a simple way it can be done to leave relatively pure water? and all the nasties trapped in the filter?
User avatar
fuzzy-hair-man
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 955
Joined: Apr 6, 2006 2:09 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Primary Grotto Affiliation: NUCC
  

Postby bigalpha » Mar 15, 2007 2:57 am

Alright Evan, you win. I don't konw what I was thinking.

Anyways ---

So, urine is sterile, so I imagine the thing that would have the most negative impact was would the uric acid. Would it be possible to treat the urine in such a way that it just becomes a neutral solution?

Fuzzy, most plants use a combination of bacteria, filtering, chemicals to treat water. Of course, around here where the plant can't handle all the waste all the time, they discharge it into the rivers.
User avatar
bigalpha
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 611
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 3:04 pm
Location: Central TN
  

Postby Evan G » Mar 15, 2007 3:37 am

You both are geniuses, I don't why I didn't see it in the first place!!

Think of this:

Instead of using a water purifier for drinking water, why not use it as a Urine purifier that extracts the waste biological material out of the urine, leaves it in the membrane of the purifier and separates the water. Most backpacking purifiers extract to .2 microns that filter most of the biological’s out of the urine and some of the salts. Thus what is coming out is not pure water but a highly filtered version of the urine which can be left in the cave. I think it would be better overall for the cave. At the end of the trip, the filter being thrown away and the housing cleaned (like cleaning the toilet), a new filter can put in for future use.

Most backpacking filters are very light weight and I highly doubt that five or six gallons of urine will clog a new filter.
Evan G
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mar 12, 2006 2:52 pm
Location: Breckenridge, CO
Name: EEG
NSS #: 28685
Primary Grotto Affiliation: NRMG
  

Postby bigalpha » Mar 15, 2007 4:22 am

Do you think that it'd work to filter out enough of the junk to make the leftover fluid (mostly) harmless to the cave? Would you still store the liquid in a bucket or dump it on the ground?
User avatar
bigalpha
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 611
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 3:04 pm
Location: Central TN
  

Postby Evan G » Mar 15, 2007 10:27 am

Do you think that it'd work to filter out enough of the junk to make the leftover fluid (mostly) harmless to the cave?


I think it would filter most of the biological material out of the fluid down to .2 mircons (that is what it is made to do) thus I would theorize (needs tested) that what would come out of the filtered end would be slightly acidic salt water. Which would be much safer to the cave than current practice.

Would you still store the liquid in a bucket or dump it on the ground?


You can dump it straight onto limestone (not gypsum). Since limestone is formed at the bottom of an ocean there will be trace amounts of salt in the cave anyway. The acid neutralized by the base element in the limestone, thus allowing it to be “safe” for the cave environment.

This idea should be tested first in a controlled environment and a non-iodide based filter should be employed. The filter needs to be chemical free for the idea to work.
Evan G
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mar 12, 2006 2:52 pm
Location: Breckenridge, CO
Name: EEG
NSS #: 28685
Primary Grotto Affiliation: NRMG
  

Postby bigalpha » Mar 15, 2007 11:32 am

Cool, that sounds like a feasible idea. So, in a gypsum/marble/lava tube cave, you'd be packing it out still?

We need to come up with a way to neutralize urine in other cave environments. Heck, maybe we can invent something, then get rich.

(I promise I'm not as slow as I seem!)
User avatar
bigalpha
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 611
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 3:04 pm
Location: Central TN
  

Postby Evan G » Mar 15, 2007 11:47 am

So, in a gypsum/marble/lava tube cave, you'd be packing it out still?


I would agree with that and any caving trip under 24 hours.

(I promise I'm not as slow as I seem!)


I didn't assume you where, actually I thought the opposite.
Evan G
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mar 12, 2006 2:52 pm
Location: Breckenridge, CO
Name: EEG
NSS #: 28685
Primary Grotto Affiliation: NRMG
  

PreviousNext

Return to Conservation Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users