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ron_miller wrote:William, you can't dismiss air locks, because the passage in Lech goes up and down and up and down etc. If you are thinking of gravity flow in each downhill system, there will be air in the tubing, which will naturally migrate to the highest point. Air locks may very well be a "game over" problem.
William Tucker wrote:This brings up another crazy idea, though. Could vacuum evaporation be used to concentrate the urine? I have experienced vacuum evaporation on a small scale using syringes. By covering the tip and pulling the plunger, you can boil the water in a syringe. I just wonder how hard it would be to build a vacuum evaporator which would work on human power and on liquid volumes of a few gallons or so maybe even a liter at a time. And, if it could be built cheaply, you could use more than one evaporator.
...and refrain if possible from what could easily be perceived as attacks on current National Park Service (NPS) management practices.
4. Regardless of whether done by "pee sherpas" or by the expedition cavers themselves, a day trip into Lech that includes a trip out of the cave with a 52+ lb pack creates significant risk of caver injury and/or cave damage due to fatigue and/or self-imposed dehydration (due to a desire to minimize self-generated amount of urine to be carried out).
5. Regardless of the number of expeditions going into the cave, having either group haul out a week's worth of urine of an equal number of people doubles the impact to trade routes. Although the trade routes are more impacted than the rest of the cave, they nevertheless pass over or very close to many delicate and pristine features (including aragonite bushes, long soda straws, gypsum flowers, hydromagnesite balloons, pools, flowstone, etc.). This practice would thus also create significant risk of a major release of urine in a sensitive area.
6. The concept of "pee sherpa" expeditions has at least one other serious potential problem - long-term volunteer supply. Yes, there are probably several very qualified cavers who would volunteer to be a pee sherpa. Maybe they'd volunteer once to each branch. However, given the unglamorous nature of this type of trip, as well as the significant time and travel expense associated with getting to Lech for most of the world's caving population, I just don't see there being a long-term sustainable supply of a sufficient number of pee sherpas
or, frankly, of Lech-experienced trip leaders that the Park would certainly require to lead such trips. In the latter days of LEARN, cancellations even on exploration/survey expeditions became increasingly frequent and last-minute, to the point where it was a major challenge to actually field a full roster of cavers possessing the necessary experience and qualifications. I would anticipate that the same problem would develop over time with the pee sherpa trips.
Squirrel Girl wrote:Go ahead and brainstorm. Afterall, that's how advances are made. Sometimes a crazy --- idea turns out to be something really great. But losing sleep over this is not really worth it, IMHO.
Bobatnathrop wrote:and I can't scetch
Right now it kinda seems like you have to either know somebody,
or know who to send alot of cookies too.
*Jeremy leaves now to go bake some cookies for Stan A.*
-Jeremy A.
Squirrel Girl wrote:I hadn't looked at this thread since the very beginning until just today, but it seems like you guys are overwrought over, well, not "nothing" but... <snip>
Face it. There's some minor harm that comes to the cave by humans being there. Just like there's some minor harm that comes from bats being there. But in the big picture, I'll bet that urine isn't the end of the world, and there aren't any good alternatives.
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