Depressing Cave-Related Link

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Depressing Cave-Related Link

Postby Steven Johnson » Mar 5, 2007 12:04 am

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/03/04/_v ... in_en.html

This knucklehead thought that posting pictures of a vandalized cave -- with directions! -- was a good idea.

I have emailed him with a complaint.
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Postby barcelonacvr » Mar 5, 2007 7:36 am

Dear god...talk about a huge need for education on karst and caves.It is a rather pretty looking little cave,too bad it is so far gone.

Post if your complaint is not received well and maybe we all can spam away to Boing Boing.At least with the large readership there ,the message would get to many eyes.
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Postby Crockett » Mar 5, 2007 9:44 am

You identified yourself as representing the NSS then you used profanity in your comment that is not allowed in this forum. I think that is inappropriate and you should ask for your comment to be removed.

Spamming, like bad language, is probably not a good way to promote cave conservation.

How about a link? Like this:

http://www.caves.org/committee/conservation/

....or find a better one. You can do it. It's easy if you try.
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Postby Steven Johnson » Mar 5, 2007 10:55 am

Crockett wrote:You identified yourself as representing the NSS then you used profanity in your comment that is not allowed in this forum. I think that is inappropriate and you should ask for your comment to be removed.

Spamming, like bad language, is probably not a good way to promote cave conservation.

How about a link? Like this:

http://www.caves.org/committee/conservation/

....or find a better one. You can do it. It's easy if you try.


Good point, profanity was uncalled for in that link. I'll go back and edit that comment.
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Postby barcelonacvr » Mar 5, 2007 3:40 pm

Crockett wrote:You identified yourself as representing the NSS then you used profanity in your comment that is not allowed in this forum. I think that is inappropriate and you should ask for your comment to be removed.

Spamming, like bad language, is probably not a good way to promote cave conservation.

How about a link? Like this:

http://www.caves.org/committee/conservation/

....or find a better one. You can do it. It's easy if you try.



I was using the slang of spamming most users in other forums I deal with like Reddit/Linkfilter etc use as in more than one AKA 3 or so people.I was not suggesting actual spamming or DNS type behavior as most know that is just wrong.I assumed the poster would have posted a link like you have and suggested that cave locations and damage are not positive things.

I only suggested "spamming" aka maybe 3 people sending emails in the event his message was met with hostility or ignored so as to keep the topic in the eyes of the huge daily click group Boing Boing enjoys so more could get a good message about caves and caving.
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Postby Teresa » Mar 5, 2007 9:33 pm

I'm not sure why folks here think posting a photo of terribly carved up cave is a bad thing. At this point, I'm not certain that adding the rough location necessarily takes it to another level of bad, either. Looks like there is very little left to save at this point. If it sends yahoos to that location, rather than to a prettier, more pristine cave, it might actually be doing some good at karst preservation elsewhere.

For every person who looks at the carvings and says, "cool!" I bet there is another, with no caving or environmental background who looks and says something a whole lot more unprintable. Cave conservationists have this whole difficulty in getting our message across-- we have to have balance between the exquisite pristine photo, the so-so, and the utterly trashed, or we can't make our point. Hey, there is the good, the bad and the ugly, and they all come together.

There is a whole secondary thread out there in regards to mud gargoyles that some (cavers!) leave in caves. While admittedly not chunking into the stone, the question: is it art or is it vandalism? And I don't buy the whole story that all ancient cave art was either significant or religious, either. Some was, but some was probably about as significant as this.

Thanks for letting us know about this link. It will be interesting to watch how the thread develops--if nothing else, it will reflect the size of the challenge before us.
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Postby Cheryl Jones » Mar 5, 2007 10:50 pm

Teresa, any idea what kind of rock the cave might be formed in? It sure doesn't appear to be limestone. Volcanic? Sandstone? Anyone know the geology of the area?

The cave appears that it could be a small shelter cave with a skylight.

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Postby Teresa » Mar 6, 2007 1:30 am

I quickly defer to any LA area cavers or geologists, but these caves are apparently in the foothills of the Santa Monica Mountains--that weird east to west 50 mile long mountain ridge in northern LA County.

Looking at the photos, and reading a bit on the net reveals there are a fair number of sandstones, shales, siltstones, kaolinite deposits (thick clays) and a few volcanic intrusives in this mountain range. Looking at the photos (the case hardened smiley face, for one, and the scratched wall carvings, my best guess would be a soft fine sandstone, or a thick siltstone or poorly compressed shale. It doesn't seem to be volcanic, though a slightly unconsolidated volcanic ash layer wouldn't be out of the question. I don't think it is basalt or rhyolite or any other volcanic stone.

If silicate rocks, the karstification could be from landslides, and heavy rains instead of a lot of chemistry. Most of these rocks are between 80 million and 10-20 million years old. Pretty young.

As stated above, this is just a SWAG from the photos and some reading--I quickly jump out of the way and defer to anyone from LA-- I've been in this area once but it was 25 years ago, and I was enjoying the ride through the Santa Monicas with a friend too much to get out and notice the rocks.
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