Gated Caves

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Re: Gated Caves

Postby GroundquestMSA » Feb 15, 2015 5:44 pm

tncaver wrote:Is land ownership really that difficult of a concept?

It is. For me anyway, I aint that bright.
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Gated Caves

Postby Ernie Coffman » Feb 15, 2015 7:14 pm

You're not trying to change the subject are you, by saying you're not too bright? You're more than bright, me thinks. For all of the writing you do, it seems you're way more than bright. But, if you don't understand land ownership, as you wrote, how about the clothes on your back? You have a nice looking picture, of yourself I assume, but...shouldn't do that, so...let's just use the picture as a subject of understanding. Take off the hat for its not yours and definitely take off the cloak and dagger uniform that you have on--or someone has on--and now you're naked, right? At least for what we can see. You might have on other essentials, like boots/shoes and underwear , but now that they're off of you, you're just as you were when you were born...with nothing. Are you with me, for this is really getting out of cave chat discussions, but you brought it up, so...with nothing, you either decide, eventually, to do something about it. You can continue to be like a Brazilian headhunter or native of the wilds of Africa and run around naked, or you can put some leaves or whatever on your person. Now you have something of ownership if you do put something on. :rofl: I'm not going any further with this, but your concept of climbing into commercial caves, going into gated caves without permission, is really against the philosophy of the NSS, I do believe. In fact, I'm wondering whether you're NSS or if you're just here to make discussion. As for my thoughts, we're :off topic: but just had to throw in my two-cents worth, considering. :yikes:
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Re: Gated Caves

Postby GroundquestMSA » Feb 16, 2015 12:15 am

Ernie Coffman wrote:You're not trying to change the subject are you

No, I was trying to spare the audience.
Ernie Coffman wrote: But, if you don't understand land ownership, as you wrote, how about the clothes on your back?

I may not be a very smart man, but I do know what ownership is. I unashamedly wear and own clothes. That isn't me in the photo. I can't grow even that junky little bit of beard. I am an NSS member. I am not NSS, whatever that means. I do not concern myself with the "philosophy of the NSS," if such a thing exists. I am just here to make discussion. That cleared up...you asked for it: :big grin:

Property ownership cannot be compared to the utilization of basic tools and goods like clothing and cars. Claiming rights to a piece of land makes sense only as long as the owner intends to enter into a mutually beneficial relationship with that land, to know it and care for it, to allow it to care for him. This relationship is not selfish or possessive, though it may call for active protection of the land against a threat to its health, and the owner should be in a position to know what threatens his land and how to react to these dangers appropriately. In real life, these sorts of owners barely exist. The modern landowner holds title to a number of acres by virtue of amount of money paid. He neither knows or cares for his land, has no intention or means to protect it, and is interested only in control or monetary return. This sort of land ownership is an absolute joke, made even more absurd by its transience. A hillside may have ten "owners" in a hundred years, but none of them were really owners were they? The idea that we can trade money for absolute power over the earth is an insult to the earth. And it is damaging. And it is untrue. Therefore, while I respect the idea of personal privacy, the idea of personal reward for hard work, and the idea of responsible land use by its residents and caretakers, I find the idea of land ownership, as practiced in our society, impossible to reconcile with any proper "unalienable rights" or with the concept of right behavior. That is why I do not consider a deed to land an automatic qualification for making decisions for that land.
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Re: Gated Caves

Postby caver.adam » Feb 16, 2015 9:26 am

First, GroundquestMSA, I really like your post. I think you capture well what ownership should be in a forward-thinking society. Unfortunately, our society is often aimed at the now with blatant disregard for the future. There could be some interesting philosophical discussion about whether it is unethical to ignore potential (or highly probable) future consequences.

But the question I'm left asking is: If the owner gates a cave with a gate that is designed not to hurt the native life of the cave, is it better to provide blanket protection for your land than to let anyone on it unsupervised? Especially if the owner doesn't know much about how to preserve it?
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Re: Gated Caves

Postby Chads93GT » Feb 16, 2015 10:13 am

Something tells me you are a renter and not a home owner.

Who are you to assume someone does or does not care for their land properly? What skin do you have in the game.

Nothing like promoting and justifying trespassing on a public forum on the NSS forum.
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Re: Gated Caves

Postby jeffkruse » Feb 16, 2015 12:09 pm

GroundquestMSA wrote:
Ernie Coffman wrote:You're not trying to change the subject are you

No, I was trying to spare the audience.
Ernie Coffman wrote: But, if you don't understand land ownership, as you wrote, how about the clothes on your back?

I may not be a very smart man, but I do know what ownership is. I unashamedly wear and own clothes. That isn't me in the photo. I can't grow even that junky little bit of beard. I am an NSS member. I am not NSS, whatever that means. I do not concern myself with the "philosophy of the NSS," if such a thing exists. I am just here to make discussion. That cleared up...you asked for it: :big grin:

Property ownership cannot be compared to the utilization of basic tools and goods like clothing and cars. Claiming rights to a piece of land makes sense only as long as the owner intends to enter into a mutually beneficial relationship with that land, to know it and care for it, to allow it to care for him. This relationship is not selfish or possessive, though it may call for active protection of the land against a threat to its health, and the owner should be in a position to know what threatens his land and how to react to these dangers appropriately. In real life, these sorts of owners barely exist. The modern landowner holds title to a number of acres by virtue of amount of money paid. He neither knows or cares for his land, has no intention or means to protect it, and is interested only in control or monetary return. This sort of land ownership is an absolute joke, made even more absurd by its transience. A hillside may have ten "owners" in a hundred years, but none of them were really owners were they? The idea that we can trade money for absolute power over the earth is an insult to the earth. And it is damaging. And it is untrue. Therefore, while I respect the idea of personal privacy, the idea of personal reward for hard work, and the idea of responsible land use by its residents and caretakers, I find the idea of land ownership, as practiced in our society, impossible to reconcile with any proper "unalienable rights" or with the concept of right behavior. That is why I do not consider a deed to land an automatic qualification for making decisions for that land.

I agree with this post. Here in NM I have never seen so many fences and private property signs. Sure, own an acre or ten or 100 but not 1000 or 10,000.
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Gated Caves

Postby Ernie Coffman » Feb 16, 2015 12:17 pm

You should go into the real estate business. Whoops ! Maybe you are already in it. From gated caves to your belief in land ownership is something else. I hope you never want to own anything, like a house or land, especially if it has a cave or two on it. Whewee! You certainly take things for granted, when you write about land owners.
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Re: Gated Caves

Postby Chads93GT » Feb 16, 2015 3:01 pm

Oh great, now we are getting into "why does anyone need 1000 acres or more" from the have not's. Guess you have never met a farmer.

The stupidity in this thread is astounding.
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Re: Gated Caves

Postby caver.adam » Feb 16, 2015 3:54 pm

It started with the statement: "You must be a renter".

I'm a landowner. And I still think people should manage their property and they don't. That's part of what caused the dust bowl in the early 20th century. That has nothing to do with me being allowed to trespass. But it does support that idea that people have possession of land with the effect (or even the intention) of destroying natural resources. The ethical debate becomes: when as a society do we decide that a persons "right to own anything" is damaging to society as a whole.

I won't trespass because that's not right. But I will try to convince a landowner not to destroy a large cave just because he doesn't like the entrance being on his property....which usually leads to the owner wanting a gate instead. A reasonable safety precaution.
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Gated Caves

Postby Ernie Coffman » Feb 16, 2015 4:08 pm

Good answer Caver.Adam.

On another subject--thank goodness--is your conduit about 24" in diameter. Do you have rungs set into it. Believe we had a discussion going on this several years ago, but...my old computer isn't around anymore and I lost a lot of folders. Emailing me privately my be the best way to answer; and, I might come up with some other questions for you about it.
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Re: Gated Caves

Postby Shane S » Feb 16, 2015 6:08 pm

I'm glad the Government doesn't own any more than what they do. I'm sure they would cater to the whims of the hunter as usual. I'm sure the hunters throw more money their way.
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Re: Gated Caves

Postby MUD » Feb 17, 2015 9:03 am

:grin: I own a nice piece of land here in se Ohio. I have 2 houses, a barn and several outbuildings on the property. My wife and I built everything here. When we purchased this land there was nothing on it as far as buildings, electric, phone and water. We have built a few pastures for our horses too. It is a lot of work! My property taxes are a few thousand dollars per year. We pay them. Do we really own this land? NO! We cannot take it with us wherever we go. So we are the current caretakers of it. We care for it well!

Jonah....I am about 1.5 hours east of your place. Please come visit us so we can chat proper. I even have a small cave you can help dig on lol. After your visit here I will then take you to central PA. for some caving in gated caves that I have the keys to. :big grin: We will talk to the landowners so they can tell you why *their* caves are gated. The pic is my cave just below the house. LOL.....when ya comin???
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Re: Gated Caves

Postby GroundquestMSA » Feb 17, 2015 11:16 pm

When I was very little my family moved from Tennessee to Ohio. We rented a little country house, and when I was old enough, I began to walk around it in the woods and fields. About a half-mile from the house I found a place that I loved. On a little prairie bluff was a stand of cedars that grew on a semi-circular outcropping of limestone. The cedars were very old. Their gnarled roots gripped the rocks, and their foliage mulched the ground and made it a pleasant place to sit. A little spring flowed from the base of the rocks and into a marshy pool. At the outlet of the pool the stream continued across the prairie and into the woods. I came here often, and when my brother was only four or five he came with me. We would climb on the rocks sometimes, or climb one of the trees, but mostly we sat and looked at the place and its animals. In the spring, the marshy pool came alive with little frogs that we could hear at night from the house. One of my first memories of Ohio is of my family coming home in the dark from somewhere and walking up the sidewalk to the house. The air was warm at the end of winter, and mom said, "Listen to the spring peepers!" And we all stood in the yard and listened to them. Today still, when I hear the first chorus of a new year I hear too her voice, "Listen to the spring peepers!" Anyway, this marsh was where the frogs lived, and I was very excited to find this out. In the night I would creep close to the frogs and lie on the ground until they forgot me and started singing. Sometimes, surrounded by that glittering song, I would try to sneak in a note of my own, but the frogs always noticed, and were afraid. And in the day I would look at the great slimy globs of eggs and later the tadpoles. As I say, I loved the place. When our neighbor sold the land to someone new, they began to ride their four-wheelers around the place, and soon discovered my little rocky, marshy bowl. One day, as I watched them from the top of a tree a hill away, they rode through the marsh again and again, and up and down the steep rocky banks. As soon as they left, I ran home in a panic and got a pen and paper. I must have been about 12 years old. I wrote a letter about the marsh, and about bird nests in the cedars and about the frogs that lived there. I drew a picture of a tadpole on the letter. Then I got a hammer and a blue plastic capped nail and ran to the place. I saw the muddy gouges in the ground that were the beginnings of trails all around. I nailed my note to a box-elder tree and went back home. A few days later when I heard engines I ran into the woods to watch. I saw one of the riders stop and take my note off of the tree. I watched them read it and I heard exclamations. I couldn't tell if they were laughing or angry. That question troubles me still. The four wheelers continued to ride, and soon a figure-8 track was formed that passed through the marsh and around the top of the rocky bowl and through the stream. The marsh was churned to a shredded mudhole. One day after school I found that most of the cedar trees had been cut down. Most of them had been piled in the stream to form a bridge, and some were just lying around. The whole place was torn and muddy and ugly, ruined, and I stood on the rocks by the stumps and wept over it. I stopped going there, and so did the spring peepers.

Who of these two seems to you to have made himself a friend of the land? The god-forsaken bullshit of secular law aside, who had the most right to the land, its "owner" or a trespassing child?

I did.

--

I have assumed nothing Chad. My arguments may be stupid, but they are at least thought out to the current extent of my abilities and knowledge. I challenge you to do the same, for example, with your argument about farming. Jeffkruse's comment may seem simplistic and silly on the surface, but examine it and you may learn something.
I have taken nothing for granted Ernie, though that would be an accurate idiom to describe our society's general attitude for its natural surroundings.

caver.adam wrote:But the question I'm left asking is: If the owner gates a cave with a gate that is designed not to hurt the native life of the cave, is it better to provide blanket protection for your land than to let anyone on it unsupervised? Especially if the owner doesn't know much about how to preserve it?

That is a good and a hard question. Like a lot of good questions, asking it is more important than answering it. There may be no answer, but thinking about the problem will help us make a good choice if ever in the position to do so. It sounds like you have been faced with such situations and are trying to do the right thing.

Mud, I'm not sure if you want to chat and go caving, or to bury me in that little cranny of yours so that Cavechat can Rest In Peace... :big grin:
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Re: Gated Caves

Postby batrotter » Feb 18, 2015 6:51 am

Interesting thread! Jonah's last post about the 4 wheelers got me.
I hate these disgusting 4 wheelers. Their only purpose is to tear up the land.
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Re: Gated Caves

Postby Chads93GT » Feb 18, 2015 10:17 am

You and I are no one to tell someone how much land they can or cannot own. This isn't the United Socialist States of America. People have the freedom to buy as much land and do with it as they please. Do I like it when people buy land and tear it up? Hell no, it makes me sick. Every time I drive through my caving region I see another sinkhole bulldozed in with a stand pipe put in so farmers can till right up to the pipe. Do I like it? No, but It is not my property. The rock quarries that have quarried out countless caves in Missouri, I do not like either, but it is the quarries land and they will do with it as they please. Afterall, the product they extract is what builds our roads, our homes, and our cities. Do I like it? No.

Thinking that owning more than 100 acres is wrong is just silly. Anyone who thinks that obviously doesn't know any farmers (You know, the people who feed us?) and they have no idea what it takes to run a farm. Farming isn't cheap. You can't pay for todays half million dollar 1 piece of equipment with 100 acres. Farmers own lots of land because for many its the only way that it is profitable. If its not profitable guess what, the land gets sold and a developer builds another damn subdivision with no trees on the outskirts of town. Fences are built to keep livestock from roaming. You don't see many fences around corn fields, and if you do its because once upon a time livestock ran there or does run there in the winter.

I understand what you are saying, but again, your way of thinking about property rights is not the reality of our time. Do I agree with what you are saying? Somewhat, yes, but at the same time, mostly no. You can think what you want about property ownership, but the laws on the books state otherwise. A trespassing charge on your record is something you dont want and if you tell the judge "But its my land because I was there to enjoy it" isn't going to hold any weight.

Sorry, I am simply being realistic, not philosophical.
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