Smokers in a cave

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Re: Smokers in a cave

Postby Cody JW » Jun 5, 2012 3:55 pm

Do not bring the patch into this. My wife tried the patch and it did not work. She could not keep it lit. Also smells familiar- they may teach "history" in schools but they do not teach things like how and why this nation was founded. It seems to me you are wanting to throw gas on the "no politics on cave chat " fire. I guess it is ok to stomp on cave life and disturb bats but god forbid a cigarette. What about carbide lights?? Some people still use them. Choices, it is all about choices. If your whittle lungs cannot handle smoke in a cave I guess there is always bird watching, unless someone gets within 2 miles of you with a cigarette. Then I am sure you will cry like a rat eating onions . I do not care if people smoke in caves or not. You are the one forcing your ideas on others , not me.
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Re: Smokers in a cave

Postby Cody JW » Jun 5, 2012 4:19 pm

Hey Smells Familiar, I bet you drive a car every day. You know I have to breathe the fumes from your car because we live in the same area ( Central Indiana I assume) . Maybe those who want to cry about second hand smoke can live in hyperbaric chamber with no outside influence. The water you drink , city or well is contaminated to a certain degree. Maybe a double reverse osmosis system with additional filtration ?? My point is if you live life on this planet your body is going to be subjected to many potential contaminates , you have MUCH more to worry about than being in a 2 mile cave with somebody smoking in that cave the same day. If you live in Indianapolis , check the air quality index, then see how much cigarette smoke contributes to that. Meanwhile get in your car and spew those contaminates all over the air I breathe. Do not worry, i do not care. I will make a deal with you. If you no longer drive your car and pollute my air , I will no longer allow people on my cave trips to stink up the cave air. I mean if we are going to regulate, lets regulate.
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Re: Smokers in a cave

Postby Smells_Familiar » Jun 5, 2012 7:51 pm

tncaver wrote:I said "I am losing my will to be tolerant of fellow cavers who want to FORCE their ideals upon everyone else." I did not say anything about
forcing people to smoke or not smoke.


To keep this fairly on topic I'm just going to focus on what you said in the quote above. What does that even mean "FORCE their ideals upon everyone else" considering nobody in this thread had mentioned anything about anyone's desire to force cavers to do anything...until you jumped in and started going on about beauracratic slavery and wanting to migrate to another "new world".

I don't know man. Will this be another thread taken down the drain by politics??

tncaver wrote:You don't have to read this or any other thread if you don't like what is written.


I appreciate that. However, I want to read this thread as I have enjoyed reading it for the most part and I posted in it before all the political BS. I like a healthy debate. Debate isn't against the forum rules. Politics is.
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Re: Smokers in a cave

Postby Smells_Familiar » Jun 5, 2012 8:13 pm

Cody JW wrote:Do not bring the patch into this. My wife tried the patch and it did not work. She could not keep it lit.
:laughing:

Kidding aside, the patch worked great for me. I smoked from age 13 to 22 and then quit cold turkey. ~Ten years later I started again when out drinking with friends and smoked for ~six months. Quit four months ago with the help of the patch and it worked great. Still smoke-free and never want one unless I'm drinking with friends.

Cody JW wrote:Also smells familiar- they may teach "history" in schools but they do not teach things like how and why this nation was founded.


Yes they do. My son learned the basics in elementary school and this year, at the beginning of 6th grade, they learned about the issues in depth (in depth for 6th grade). They will continue to have more opportunity to learn about it more thoroughly as the years go by, as communicated to me by my son's Humanities teacher.

Cody JW wrote:It seems to me you are wanting to throw gas on the "no politics on cave chat " fire.


Didn't know there was really an opposition to the flagrant political drivel around these parts. I only regularly read a few different sub forums so I probably missed any complaining. But really, everyone should be required to abide by the rule, or we should abolish the rule. From what I've read, it seems to nearly completely be a one sided rant.

Cody JW wrote:I guess it is ok to stomp on cave life and disturb bats but god forbid a cigarette. What about carbide lights?? Some people still use them. Choices, it is all about choices. If your whittle lungs cannot handle smoke in a cave I guess there is always bird watching, unless someone gets within 2 miles of you with a cigarette. Then I am sure you will cry like a rat eating onions . I do not care if people smoke in caves or not. You are the one forcing your ideas on others , not me.


Now you're being immature. Look at what you wrote. I had a simple point: We cave. We should cave with good etiquette, which includes minimizing easily avoidable negative impact on caves. Why are you arguing against that widely accepted notion? Also, how can anyone "force ideas on others"? We're just having a discussion...
Last edited by Smells_Familiar on Jun 5, 2012 9:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Smokers in a cave

Postby Smells_Familiar » Jun 5, 2012 8:29 pm

Cody JW wrote:Hey Smells Familiar, I bet you drive a car every day. You know I have to breathe the fumes from your car because we live in the same area ( Central Indiana I assume) . Maybe those who want to cry about second hand smoke can live in hyperbaric chamber with no outside influence. The water you drink , city or well is contaminated to a certain degree. Maybe a double reverse osmosis system with additional filtration ?? My point is if you live life on this planet your body is going to be subjected to many potential contaminates , you have MUCH more to worry about than being in a 2 mile cave with somebody smoking in that cave the same day. If you live in Indianapolis , check the air quality index, then see how much cigarette smoke contributes to that. Meanwhile get in your car and spew those contaminates all over the air I breathe. Do not worry, i do not care. I will make a deal with you. If you no longer drive your car and pollute my air , I will no longer allow people on my cave trips to stink up the cave air. I mean if we are going to regulate, lets regulate.


I'm not crying about anything. :roll:
Sure dude, you can go all extreme with your analogies if you think it helps you make a point better. All I'm saying is: 1) I hope people practice good cave etiquette (and if they don't they're either ignorant or idiots), and 2) politics should be left off of cavechat if that's the rule.

Oh, and once again, NOBODY said anything about regulation for God's sake.

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Re: Smokers in a cave

Postby LukeM » Jun 6, 2012 8:20 am

It seems someone mistakenly assumed that having a preference about people smoking in a cave was a statement about your political beliefs.

I was enjoying this thread too.
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Re: Smokers in a cave

Postby Cody JW » Jun 6, 2012 9:42 am

Ok, here is my point. If person A is in a cave and a group of other cavers are in the same cave and one of the group is smoking in the cave. I could be wrong but I bet based on responses that some of you ( person A) will say something to the smoker . I ( person B) will not. I am not forcing my opinion on the smoker but person A is. If somebody wants to call that political then their view of politics is jaded. All I am saying is in that situation I will not force my view but I bet the one crying about the smoke will. Call it political or off topic or right wing or whatever term you choose to use . That is what I mean by forcing your views on others. I will not but the one crying about the smoke will.
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Re: Smokers in a cave

Postby LukeM » Jun 6, 2012 10:08 am

No one can force anything on someone else in a cave. A person that can't deal with the smoke would simply ask that they hold off on it, just like I would ask my friend to hold off on the bean burritos before I crawl behind him for hours. I'm sure there are things you would ask people to stop doing in a cave that some of us smoke-haters wouldn't, and they probably don't even affect you directly like smoke in a cave would affect someone with asthma.
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Re: Smokers in a cave

Postby Cody JW » Jun 6, 2012 10:40 am

I would stop someone from killing bats or spray painting or stealing formations in a cave because in Indiana and most states that is illegal. Smoking , last time I checked is still a legal activity. If I had asthma or some other condition that caused me grief if I was around smoke in a confined area, I would be very selective about what caves I went to. I would not go to Tumbling Rock or Ellisons or any other cave that is known to have multiple groups at one time. If I had a physical condition that I felt might prevent me from climbing several hundred feet of rope I would not put myself on the bottom of Ellisons.It is called common sense. I feel that a persons illness or inability to be around smoke should not limit or restrict another persons ability to engage in a legal activity. That is all I am saying. Now I will say if I were a smoker I would ask others around me that I do not know if it is OK if I smoke , if they say no I will go someplace away from the person who said no to the smoke and smoke. I would be making an effort to keep it away from the person who does not want to be around it, if they still complain than that is their problem as far as I am concerned. I do not smoke and never had or never will. I agree with you some of you, it is a nasty habit. But I also agree with the liberties of people to engage in a legal activity. My advice to you who do not think that is enough is to call your senators and congressmen and convince them to make it illegal because it is so bad for you. That is the way our system is supposed to work. I wish you luck with that because our government loves the tax money.
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Re: Smokers in a cave

Postby NZcaver » Jun 6, 2012 3:22 pm

Peeing and pooping in a cave is also a "legal activity" in most places. But just like second hand smoke, it's a health hazard to you if you have to come in contact with it. How do you feel about that? Bear in mind too that humans have to pee and poop in order to live, whereas smoking serves no useful purpose whatsoever.

Personally I have no qualms about expressing my displeasure to people who selfishly choose to smoke in a cave. I make a point of starting off polite about it, because a smoker might just be thoughtless rather than totally uncaring. I'm not depriving them of their liberties and rights to smoke any more than they are depriving me of my liberties and rights to breathe air that isn't going to HARM ME. In my opinion this has nothing to do with politics, but still some people love to jump on that bandwagon.
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Re: Smokers in a cave

Postby NZcaver » Jun 6, 2012 3:38 pm

On a slight tangent, I'd like to address a point that was brought up earlier.

Smells_Familiar wrote:3) It's clear that the "no politics on these boards" rule is not enforced in the slightest.

Actually, they are enforced.

The Read Me First post states in broad terms "we don't allow political or religious discussions" and provides a link to the official forum Terms of Service. There it states "the NSS Forum is not the place for arguments over local, state, or federal politics or politicians..." which was carefully worded to differentiate between purely partisan politics and allowable discussions related to caving which may touch on political themes.

Yes, enforcing the rules is very subjective but that's why we have a whole team of moderators to discuss issues which come to our attention. In this topic I see adults engaging in reasonable conversation and not pushing the boundaries too far, and hopefully it will stay that way.
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Re: Smokers in a cave

Postby Cody JW » Jun 6, 2012 4:29 pm

NZcaver wrote:Peeing and pooping in a cave is also a "legal activity" in most places. But just like second hand smoke, it's a health hazard to you if you have to come in contact with it. How do you feel about that?
People on long project trips have to do their business in caves. Most will carry out their #2 in what they call burrito's. Not sure how feasible it is to do that with #1. As for the rest of the discussion, I think what we have here is a result of a generation gap.I say this because when I see most of the NSS #s of those who oppose me I am assuming they are quite a bit younger than I. I am 48 and I can remember when newscasters smoked on the set, coaches and players in professional basketball smoked on the bench. Is it bad for you ? Yes it is. But it is not ingrained in me to go ape if I have to be around the smoke. It does not bother me. I prefer not to be around it but if I am I am not going to make an international incident out of it. We are going to have to agree to disagree. If a landowner said no smoking , his cave his choice. As long as it is legal and there are no rules of the landowner that states no smoking than if someone wants to smoke on my trips they can. I accept the right of others to say no smoking on their trips. If you feel strongly about it and do not want guys on your trip smoking than do not allow it, fine with me. Also NZ- Thanks for clearing up the "no politics" issue on this topic, I did not really think it was political. Just a difference in opinion on should people in the cave smoke.
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