I just read the whole thread and learned a few things:
1) cob doesn't fart.
2) almost everyone in this thread dislikes smoking in cave and intoxicated cavers.
3) It's clear that the "no politics on these boards" rule is not enforced in the slightest. Recently, more and more threads are being politicized by a select few right-wing posters. Just callin' it as I see it. I'm not left-wing and I'm not right-wing, I'm someone who tries to keep an open mind, stay objective, and avoid becoming cynical. I'm getting tired of so many threads being derailed into one sided political rants by a few forum posters. Just me? Discussion is good, but one sided ranting is annoying and doesn't accomplish anything. The 8 pages of this thread full of good discussion was never about left/right politics or any type of regulation until some posters chimed in connecting some imaginary dots.
The TOS and the "Please READ ME FIRST before posting" thread clearly state that politics should never be brought into the discussions on these boards.
This post isn't addressing anyone personally, just points people are making, and I'm sure that if we caved together we'd get along famously. However, some of you are allowed to get away with some pretty inflammatory stuff, so I can at least play devil's advocate.
Cody JW wrote:I have caved for years with people who smoke, I do not smoke and prefer not to be around it and the people who go with me do not do it in sensitive formation areas of the cave. It never did bother me. I guess it is this younger generation. I will say that sometimes a cigarette is nice to have if you are looking to follow the air. I do agree with B . Trotter to a certain extent. I prefer not to live in a nanny state, we have lots of that already.
Who said anything political? Nobody's calling for more rules, regs., or fines. Even in the inflammatory post by batrotter that you're referencing there's nothing about politics mentioned. Just whining about "whiners".
Cody JW wrote:Lets face it, If you want to get technical , just the presence of humans in a cave can impact cave biology. You could be stepping on microscopic life and not know it. You can disturb hibernating bats ect. the list goes on and on. If humans want to go in caves they are going to impact something , with or without cigarettes. Why some people want to fool themselves and get on a high horse about cigarettes when they are impacting the cave just by being in there is to me hypocritical.
Every caver caves, but smokers add additional unnecessary damage to the cave environment. Additionally, second-hand smoke is deadly. Caving causes impact to the cave environment that is unavoidable unless you abstain from caving. No one said otherwise. Abstaining from smoking in cave is one easy way to avoid unnecessary negative impact on the cave and life in it. Sorta similar to packing out trash, not pooping in cave, and not burning incense. It should be discouraged.
tncaver wrote:Bureaucracy has invaded caving. It's too bad there isn't another "new world" to migrate to. This country was founded by people trying to escape bureaucratic "slavery". But it seems many of the pro bureaucrats have followed us to the "new world" and are gradually converting it to the same type of world the founders wanted to escape. I've been around lots of smokers in caves. Although I do not like being in a cave with smokers I have always been tolerant so long as smokers did not leave butts or smoke in a small area near bats, etc. Sometimes tolerance is required to get along.
However, I must admit that I am losing my will to be tolerant of fellow cavers who want to FORCE their ideals upon everyone else.
So leaving butts is a big no-no to you but smoking is just fine? Howzat? Also, who the hell is talking about FORCING people to not smoke? NOBODY! It's funny how just a few people on this forum often times turn threads into a political left vs. right thing when there's no left threat in the first place. Just people people wanting to observe decent cave etiquette and not wanting to be forced to inhale deadly smoke that would be easily avoidable if cavers observed decent cave etiquette. Smoking in a cave is just F-ing selfish when there's temporary fixes like the patch. Guys, our country's evolved since the 1700's, evolution is the way of life! Get over it and adapt, try to make the best out of it and to make the most positive impact you can. Or you can fight to stay static and be eliminated by evolution.
The best objective solution is to look at the most recent, thorough, well done science. Otherwise your just babbling egotistical dogma. We know second-hand cigarette smoke is very bad to breathe and can lead to cancer. We know smoking in a cave causes easily avoidable damage to the cave. We know cavers can easily avoid smoking in caves by using things like the patch. So, I fail to see even a remotely good argument from others trying to condone smoking in caves, unless it serves a practical and necessary purpose for the expedition.
To me, a part of proper cave etiquette is to avoid any unnecessary damage to the cave that can be easily avoided. Also, a part of proper LIFE etiquette involves not harming others if it can be easily avoided. Makes sense. You can look at freedom selfishly and, say, justify dumping 50 gallons of benzene on your property because it's your property...even though your in a watershed upstream from a town that gets their water from that river. Or you can get your head out of your selfish ass and take the extra step and effort to depose of it properly and avoid unnecessary harm to others. Make sense? Smoking in a cave is along those same lines. It unnecessarily harms the environment and others in the cave and it's easily avoidable.
Don't even try and turn this into a big government vs. the small guy thing. Nobody in this thread has even mentioned making smoking in caves illegal or imposing fines ect. My point is to use common sense, good caving etiquette, and don't be a selfish idiot.
Chads93GT wrote:I simply find it funny that some think that voicing your opinion on someone smoking in a cave has anything to do with government regulation or nanny state BS.
Exactly!