Theoretical poll

Cave conservation issues, techniques, questions. Also visit the NSS Cave Conservation and Management Section.

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If someone in your group "accidentally" broke a delicate formation unknowingly, you would:

Take a few deep breaths and let it go.
19
59%
Administer a few hours of conservation babble and some scolding.
1
3%
Inflict physical punishment upon resurfacing.
1
3%
Skip their phone number next time you plan a caving trip.
0
No votes
Reveal them on cavechat for humiliation purposes.
1
3%
Immediately repair it with super-glue you keep in your cave bag.
1
3%
Tell them it's o.k., everyone will take it to the grave.
1
3%
Other.(Describe in a post.)
8
25%
 
Total votes : 32

Re: Theoretical poll

Postby Cody JW » Dec 6, 2011 8:30 pm

I agree with Chad. I have accidentally broke a soda straw when I raised my head once. I have also seen others do it. I feel it is virtually impossible to practice 0 impact caving . We can be as careful as reasonably possible and things can still happen. Most people out there do not ever intend to hurt others in a car accident, but it happens every day.
It only takes one person to surrender a dog to a kill shelter ,but it takes many to rescue it.
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Re: Theoretical poll

Postby WVCaver2011 » Dec 7, 2011 10:05 am

I have personally broke a few soda straws in caving. Sometimes they're where you dont expect them. If someone were to break a soda straw accidentally I would simply say, "it happens but try to be more careful."
There's nothing that makes me more excited than finding a place underground that no one has ever seen or been in!

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Re: Theoretical poll

Postby Leclused » Dec 7, 2011 10:15 am

Accidently, so this would mean that the conservation measures were insufficient. So try to make these better to avoid further damage. This can be done by extra taping to avoid cavers to come too close to the formations.
If it's possible try to restore/fix the formation.

Conservation measures should be taken as fast as possible after a discovery. FE. a few weeks ago some members of our club discovered a new part in one of our projects. The next trip (5 days later) no further exploration was done but photos were taken of the new passages and after that everything was taped and path was defined. The third and fourth trip were then topo and some other works. Now we can start again with exploring.

BR

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Re: Theoretical poll

Postby SuckinOnSodaStraws » Dec 7, 2011 11:39 am

I have been in caves where it is obvious someone went WAY overboard with tape... But a good discussion before a trip about sensitive/fragile areas of the cave will def. minimize "accidents".
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Re: Theoretical poll

Postby Chads93GT » Dec 7, 2011 11:43 am

I have flagged off areas with tape after some idiots came into a project we were doing and walked ontop of a flowstone that was dead. it was a flowstone built on mud, the entire thing shattered, shifted and fell apart.........they haven't been back since.
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Re: Theoretical poll

Postby Leclused » Dec 7, 2011 12:28 pm

SuckinOnSodaStraws wrote:I have been in caves where it is obvious someone went WAY overboard with tape... But a good discussion before a trip about sensitive/fragile areas of the cave will def. minimize "accidents".


There are several different ways of taping a fragile area. In our club we don't use the red/white tape for permanent taping. We user flexible plastic poles and then fine pvc rope which is enforced with an alu wire in it.

A sample picture
https://picasaweb.google.com/Leclused/P ... 4869481026

A good write of P De Bie member of Sc Avalon can be found here

http://www.scavalon.be/avalonuk/protect ... niques.htm
http://www.scavalon.be/downloads/Cave%2 ... nglish.pdf

Especially look at the slide 'Where are the tapes' and you will be surprised. In our club this became our standard and protecting start directly after discovery not 2 months/years later.

Br

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Re: Theoretical poll

Postby Chads93GT » Dec 7, 2011 12:32 pm

nice job with that flagging. im goin to have to replace ours as I didnt know what to use other than pink tape and stuff.
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Re: Theoretical poll

Postby Leclused » Dec 7, 2011 12:42 pm

Chads93GT wrote:nice job with that flagging. im goin to have to replace ours as I didnt know what to use other than pink tape and stuff.


thanx and feel free to spread the conservation pdf of P De Bie it's there to be used :wink:

Some samples of a recent taping

https://picasaweb.google.com/1020341718 ... 0568965186
https://picasaweb.google.com/1020341718 ... 7718289650
https://picasaweb.google.com/1020341718 ... 2865835074

Try to find the taping on the following foto

https://picasaweb.google.com/1020341718 ... 1863872450

BR

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Re: Theoretical poll

Postby KeyserSoze » Dec 8, 2011 10:25 am

For the most part I wouldn't be too upset about it if it was something small; it's happened before. I would only ditch somebody as a caving partner if I felt like the person was being particularly irresponsible or acting stupid when it happened.

A guy in my grotto took me in a big formation room when I was a newbie and actually forewarned the group that if we broke anything he wouldn't take us caving anymore, so that was a pretty good motivation to be careful.
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Re: Theoretical poll

Postby nathanroser » Dec 8, 2011 11:13 am

I've accidentally brushed my head on soda straws before as well, and it made me feel pretty awful. Any good caver is going to feel bad about breaking something, no need for a scolding. Now in the case of vandals stealing stuff, that's when you transform into a Balrog and scare the bejesus out of them.
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Re: Theoretical poll

Postby Phil Winkler » Dec 8, 2011 1:31 pm

During the early days of exploration of Glory Hole in GA (early 70s) it was almost impossible to pass thru the Regal Wiggle without breaking something. Even though we all took our helmets off, warned everyone, etc., it was so heavily festooned that inadvertent damage occurred. Similar situation in Odyssey Cave on Bumpnose Rd outside Marianna, FL. Soda straws were broken in order to penetrate further into the cave.

Any exploration of a cave is going to cause some negative impact. Others have stated to save caves you don't go caving. That is, of course, a radical concept and not one I endorse.

I think most NSS cavers do the best they can all the time. Accidents happen.

In the long run, nature and caves will win. :big grin:
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Re: Theoretical poll

Postby Jon » Dec 9, 2011 12:14 am

Three answers.
Accident while being careful. .... Easy Homer

Accident while bulling through.....EASY A HOLE

On purpose? This is a 44 Magnum, used to be the most powerful hand gun in the world, but it could still blow your head clean off....

Stuff does happen, it really just depends on the how and why. A friend recently explained it to me very well. Every broken formation is a learning experience, an educational tool. If you "fix "it with glue, all anybody will learn is what a crappy gluer someone was.

The thing is, if I break something (we ALL do) I feel bad, I slow down and then generally I see more, experience more than I might have without the incident. The trick is to be able to carry over to the next trip the extra care and awareness that the last blunder caused. :cave softly:
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Re: Theoretical poll

Postby Cavermax » Dec 9, 2011 8:59 pm

Jon wrote:Three answers.
Accident while being careful. .... Easy Homer

Accident while bulling through.....EASY A HOLE

On purpose? This is a 44 Magnum, used to be the most powerful hand gun in the world, but it could still blow your head clean off....

Stuff does happen, it really just depends on the how and why. A friend recently explained it to me very well. Every broken formation is a learning experience, an educational tool. If you "fix "it with glue, all anybody will learn is what a crappy gluer someone was.

The thing is, if I break something (we ALL do) I feel bad, I slow down and then generally I see more, experience more than I might have without the incident. The trick is to be able to carry over to the next trip the extra care and awareness that the last blunder caused. :cave softly:


Excellent reply could not have said it better :banana_yay:
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Re: Theoretical poll

Postby Jon » Dec 30, 2011 1:01 am

Strange thing is after being educated on learning experiences/tools, I now see many obviously "fixed" formations that I missed before. It's weird, now they look worse to me than a stub. Even well aligned, "click fit" minimal glue fixes often stand out like a highway patrol car with all bubblegum going on a dark moonless night on a country road. While there may be a few cases where "fixing" a historic formation may be justified or desirable, most fixes are little more than unnecessary, vain, plastic surgery.... a lie ...... done only to ease someone's conscience. Yeah, I'm a hard case, but I sleep well at night.
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