Conservation overstepping it's bounds?

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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby trogman » Feb 18, 2011 10:36 am

tncaver wrote:
derekbristol wrote:
tncaver wrote:If you aren't aware, the CBD wants the FEDs to reintroduce wolves into the original
48 states.


So you don't like wolves? I like wolves.

I don't like guns, cave closures or gates though. The CBD might have opinions on each of these topics, but I'm not sure the issues are really connected otherwise.

I also like GSMNP and would like to see it protected for future generations. I didn't realize that was a radical concept.


I can do without wolves in TN. We already have coyotes. As for protecting the GSMNP, that depends on what you mean by "protect".


Wolves were native to TN for many years, until they were eventually all killed by hunting and habitat loss. A re-introduction program of red wolves in GSMNP a few years ago failed. That's too bad, because the over-population of deer in the park could use some natural thinning. I have a car that has the damage marks from 3 collisions with deer in the road, so I for one would like to see some natural predators cutting down their numbers. Obviously the hunters are not doing a good enough job.
As far as the government owning the land and us loosing access to it- I have found the opposite to be true. Private land ownership and development has caused the loss of thousands of acres of prime caving / ridgewalking land in recent years. On the other side of this coin, AL Forever Wild program has just recently purchased a 3500 acre tract of land in Jackson County, which will be free for cavers, hikers, and anyone else to roam on at will. Prior to the purchase, this land was off limits and slated for a huge subdivision development.

Trogman :helmet:
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby tncaver » Feb 18, 2011 10:48 am

trogman wrote:As far as the government owning the land and us loosing access to it- I have found the opposite to be true. Private land ownership and development has caused the loss of thousands of acres of prime caving / ridgewalking land in recent years. On the other side of this coin, AL Forever Wild program has just recently purchased a 3500 acre tract of land in Jackson County, which will be free for cavers, hikers, and anyone else to roam on at will. Prior to the purchase, this land was off limits and slated for a huge subdivision development.
Trogman :helmet:


I wish I could say the same here in TN (pertaining to government owned land). It is true that private owned properties in this state have blocked lots of access
to cavers due to hunting clubs, subdivisions, etc. Unfortunately, most conservation organizations and our state and Federal government in TN have closed
ALL their caves. The land is open to foot traffic and not much else. Hunting trumps everything in TN. Even hikers are not supposed to be on most state owned
hunting land during deer season. Most conservation land allows no hunting (fine with me), however, they do not allow caving either. There are exceptions
of course. SCCi is one of those. And there is vehicular traffic allowed on a few limited trails in the Bridgestone/Firestone area, however, hikers are not
allowed during deer season. All caves are closed anyway.

As the state of TN continues to acquire thousands of acres, the ability to see it all on foot diminishes for the average person. The vastness of the land
and and the closure of previously existing roads makes access for camping and canoeing much less accessible than it was before the state acquired it.
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby BrianC » Feb 18, 2011 11:09 am

derekbristol wrote:
BrianC wrote:The Great Smokey Mountains has a similar group, asking for money to protect the park for our future generations. :yikes:


I also like GSMNP and would like to see it protected for future generations. I didn't realize that was a radical concept.


Out of context this sentence makes me look like I don't support GSMNP either, which is totally the opposite of my belief. But if you read the context of the statement, you should realize that that is why I posted the statement, I like the Smokey Mountains, and if you want to support the environmentalists involved there, you must not like the Mountains, because you will not be allowed to step inside the boundaries on your own. The plants and animals have been undergoing a protection from humans that will completely close it off. Once you have lived on this earth for some time, and enjoyed what it has to offer, you might understand what I am saying. As a very young college student, I was often coerced into lobbying for some of these environmental groups because I wanted to be part of something. I was totally wrong to allow someone to think for me, when all they wanted was me as a number.
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby tncaver » Feb 18, 2011 11:58 am

BrianC wrote:
derekbristol wrote:
BrianC wrote:The Great Smokey Mountains has a similar group, asking for money to protect the park for our future generations. :yikes:


I also like GSMNP and would like to see it protected for future generations. I didn't realize that was a radical concept.


Out of context this sentence makes me look like I don't support GSMNP either, which is totally the opposite of my belief. But if you read the context of the statement, you should realize that that is why I posted the statement, I like the Smokey Mountains, and if you want to support the environmentalists involved there, you must not like the Mountains, because you will not be allowed to step inside the boundaries on your own. The plants and animals have been undergoing a protection from humans that will completely close it off. Once you have lived on this earth for some time, and enjoyed what it has to offer, you might understand what I am saying. As a very young college student, I was often coerced into lobbying for some of these environmental groups because I wanted to be part of something. I was totally wrong to allow someone to think for me, when all they wanted was me as a number.


Perhaps we should be using the word preservationists to define those actions. Although lately there seems to be a huge blur between preservationist, conservationists and environmentalists.
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby BrianC » Feb 18, 2011 12:34 pm

Some of you will understand this, some eventually will, some never will. I have a six year old grandson that gives me more enjoyment in one day than my entire lifetime outdoors. I have spent more time outside in nature, than many of you have lived. I love being out in the forest, the rock walls, the deepest and most beautiful caves, but being able to bring my grandson into this enjoyment is enjoying life. He might never get to see the Rumble Room, he might never have the opportunity to pitch his tent in a big wild field and view the wild critters, he might not because so many groups think that the natural environment wasn't meant for him to enjoy. Believe me when I say, I will not stand for this, EVER. He will be educated to conserve nature as I have, and respect what our great planet has to offer. He will have the same opportunities that I have had. I will fight for what is right!

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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby MUD » Feb 18, 2011 1:51 pm

:clap: I too have a grandson. Count me on your team Brian! :waving:
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby BrianC » Feb 18, 2011 2:00 pm

Cavemud wrote::clap: I too have a grandson. Count me on your team Brian! :waving:

I do Mud! Thanks!
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby caveflower » Feb 20, 2011 8:28 am

No grandchild yet but I totally agree with everything BrianC said. I want my great great grandchildren to enjoy this earth just as I have had the honor to enjoy. I too am willing to fight for that right. :boxing:
Caving is fun but people are always more important.
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby tncaver » Feb 20, 2011 10:34 pm

caveflower wrote:No grandchild yet but I totally agree with everything BrianC said. I want my great great grandchildren to enjoy this earth just as I have had the honor to enjoy. I too am willing to fight for that right. :boxing:


Ditto. :woohoo:
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Feb 22, 2011 2:33 pm

tncaver wrote: Do you really want wolves in your back yard
Andy?


Yes. They routinely pass through the area already. The abundance of wildlife is one reason I chose this place to live. We also routinely have bear and mountain lion sightings in the neighborhood. I'm not particulary scared of them either.

tncaver wrote:The reason wolves aren't attacking people NOW is because they are not in the lower 48 states,YET, other than a very few Western states that are
not heavily populated like Wyoming.


Actually, your statement is incorrect. There have been wolves reintroduced into WY, MT, and ID for over 15 years now. They routinely stray into Utah and Colorado. They do not have a track record of attacking people. If you look at fatalities due to North American wolves it is something like less than 10 in 100 years. Dogs killed 33 people in the USA last year. Sounds dangerous. Perhaps we should eradicate all dogs.

It is interesting to me that you guys rail against the government, yet you want the government to protect you from dangerous animals. As far as Brian's grandson goes, I'm sure we can all agree that he has the right to enjoy the natural world. I work every day to make sure that there will be some environment left for him to enjoy. I also am pro-wolf. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby BrianC » Feb 22, 2011 3:09 pm

Anonymous_Coward wrote: I work every day to make sure that there will be some environment left for him to enjoy. I also am pro-wolf. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.


I think that wolves are the coolest wild animal alive. I have spoken many times with folks that raise both hybrids and full breed. I would have wolves if I could not have had children, but I would not have them together. I have raised some fairly wild dogs that have enjoyed my land, and I have loved them.I would enjoy seeing wolves in all fifty states. Coyotes and fox do inhabit where I live, and I have only seen some possibly rabid fox a few times in my immediate yard during the day, never a coyote. I hear coyotes and fox nightly. awesome. There are very few rabbits around since the coyotes have started to stay. Wolves would probably not be able to compete with coyotes and fox for wild food though. The Cumberland plateau (where I live) has had many wildlife changes in the last thirty years.
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby tncaver » Feb 22, 2011 3:54 pm

Anonymous_Coward wrote:
tncaver wrote:The reason wolves aren't attacking people NOW is because they are not in the lower 48 states,YET, other than a very few Western states that are
not heavily populated like Wyoming.


Actually, your statement is incorrect. There have been wolves reintroduced into WY, MT, and ID for over 15 years now.


My statement is not incorrect. I said "they are not in the lower 48 states,YET, other than a very few Western states that are
not heavily populated." All the states you mentioned fit my statement. All have very small populations of humans. If we had wolves in Connecticut and Rhode Island, Ohio, Indiana, etc., I think there would be some very sad situations occur for both wolves and humans. The CBD wants wolves reintroduced into ALL 48 STATES, not just the rural ones like yours. Farmers have spent the last 250 years eliminating them. I'm in favor of keeping the status quo regarding
wolves out of the states that don't already have them. I suggest the government round up all the wolves they can find in Canada and dump them in your back yard. After all, you like them. You are welcome to all of them.
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Feb 22, 2011 4:19 pm

tncaver wrote:My statement is not incorrect. I said "they are not in the lower 48 states,YET, other than a very few Western states that are
not heavily populated." All the states you mentioned fit my statement.


Yes, I was able to figure out what you meant even with the very evasive way you said it. WY, ID, and MT are in the lower 48. However, your reason for why wolves aren't attacking people is incorrect. It turns out that wolves are very shy around humans, and avoid us as a rule. People have been attacked by N. American wolves but it is a very, very, rare event.

Are you this afraid of other wild animals, or do you just have something against wolves? There are plenty of animals in TN that can hurt you, maybe you should just stay inside.
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby tncaver » Feb 22, 2011 4:34 pm

Anonymous_Coward wrote:
tncaver wrote:My statement is not incorrect. I said "they are not in the lower 48 states,YET, other than a very few Western states that are
not heavily populated." All the states you mentioned fit my statement.


Yes, I was able to figure out what you meant even with the very evasive way you said it. WY, ID, and MT are in the lower 48. However, your reason for why wolves aren't attacking people is incorrect. It turns out that wolves are very shy around humans, and avoid us as a rule. People have been attacked by N. American wolves but it is a very, very, rare event.

Are you this afraid of other wild animals, or do you just have something against wolves? There are plenty of animals in TN that can hurt you, maybe you should just stay inside.


It has nothing to do with personal fear. It's economics and Murphy's law. MOST of the lower 48 states are very populated, especially in the East and South.
Lots of cattle farms in the country, pets and children in the city. Coyotes used to be shy critters. Now they have interbred with tame dogs and coyotes are
seen roaming inside big city's at night. They don't fear man like coyotes used to. The mixed breeds are more aggressive than full blood coyotes. I've encountered a lot of coyotes in the wild and two very large cats (looked like mountain lions to me). The big cats were way more scared of me than I was of them. But I've been stalked by coyotes more than once. I picked up a rock once and it ran off. But what about a pack of wolves. Granted, the biggest danger is at night. Coyotes hunt in packs at night too. Personal fear is not a problem. I don't carry a gun...yet. The two legged varmints are probably much more dangerous than the four legged variety. However, I see absolutely no reason to reintroduce wolves into areas of dense human population. The CBD doesn't
care. Maybe they should all move out to where you live Andy. :laughing:
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Feb 22, 2011 5:32 pm

Wishing that wolves and the CBD would move to my neighborhood is cute and all, but I don't see how it helps to further this discussion.

Let's see if we can go in another direction. You have stated that conservation is overstepping its bounds. What, in your view are the "bounds" that conservation should stay inside? What actions should be taken in the name of conservation, and what actions are "out of bounds?"
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