Conservation overstepping it's bounds?

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Conservation overstepping it's bounds?

Postby tncaver » Feb 16, 2011 6:30 pm

Here is an example of state government fighting the FED government once again. In this case it is the endangered protection
listing of wolves that are causing the stir. If you aren't aware, the CBD wants the FEDs to reintroduce wolves into the original
48 states. Yep, they are the same trouble makers (CBD) who are demanding that all bat caves be closed in the US and that all bats
be declared endangered so that they can make even more demands on private landowners in the future. Once again the CBD is
screwing around with people's lives and the Feds are obliging them.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/301716

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110216/ap_ ... es_montana

And that isn't all they are up to:
Here's more: http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/2010/1 ... ors-money/

If all this CBD crap passes muster, we will all have to carry firearms into the woods to protect ourselves from predators,
and we won't be able to duck into a cave for protection either. Caves will all be gated or off limits.
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby batrotter » Feb 16, 2011 8:02 pm

tncaver wrote:
tncaver wrote:If all this CBD crap passes muster, we will all have to carry firearms into the woods to protect ourselves from predators,
and we won't be able to duck into a cave for protection either. Caves will all be gated or off limits.



The CBD is also trying to restrict any kind of lead based ammunition. Look it up. These enrivornuts are not are friends. I don't know why we outdoor oriented people get sucked into this nonsense.
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby tncaver » Feb 16, 2011 9:24 pm

I think the words FANATICS and CONTROL FREAKS explains what is going on with the CBD and some other conservation groups as well.
These same words also seem to apply to the EPA, USFWS and other government agencies.
Cavers and the general public should wake up and see the light. The FEDS are not anyone's friends. Too much government means
much less freedom....to cave, to hike, to camp, to 4 wheel, and who knows what else.
America, land of the free.....are we sure?
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby BrianC » Feb 17, 2011 8:45 am

tncaver wrote:I think the words FANATICS and CONTROL FREAKS explains what is going on with the CBD and some other conservation groups as well.
These same words also seem to apply to the EPA, USFWS and possibly other government agencies. Even some cavers fit this definition.
Cavers in general should really wake up and see the light. The FEDS are not anyone's friends (unless you have lots of money) and or might be running for office
and could be their boss some day). Too much government means much less freedom....to cave, to hike, to camp, to 4 wheel, and who knows what else.
America, land of the free.....are you sure?


I have the same opinion of the CBD and their followers. The Great Smokey Mountains has a similar group, asking for money to protect the park for our future generations. :yikes:

The problem is, for your donation of $15.00 you get a blanket and then you can use the blanket to cover your eyes when you find that the only way you can enter the park, is on an electric power bus with a waiting list of only a few years. The general public is empathetic about conservation issues, and support any group willing to say that they want to fix the environment. In every instance, the public has been taken by wolves in sheep's clothing.

If a true conservative organization would make this information well known, we might see some real conservation for our future generations enjoyment of federal lands. The way it looks, books and pics, vids, etc... might be all the see! The lands are being preserved for bacterial and fungal type organisms and their counter parts only, not people!!! :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :argue:
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby Extremeophile » Feb 17, 2011 7:41 pm

tncaver wrote:If you aren't aware, the CBD wants the FEDs to reintroduce wolves into the original
48 states.

If all this CBD crap passes muster, we will all have to carry firearms into the woods to protect ourselves from predators,
and we won't be able to duck into a cave for protection either. Caves will all be gated or off limits.


So you don't like wolves? I like wolves.

I don't like guns, cave closures or gates though. The CBD might have opinions on each of these topics, but I'm not sure the issues are really connected otherwise.

BrianC wrote:The Great Smokey Mountains has a similar group, asking for money to protect the park for our future generations. :yikes:


I also like GSMNP and would like to see it protected for future generations. I didn't realize that was a radical concept.
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby wyandottecaver » Feb 17, 2011 8:05 pm

TN,
I hate to break it to you, but there already are wolves in the lower 48 including a few oddballs in Iowa and Indiana :big grin:

The issue, like most for CBD, is a gimmik to raise money. Wolves in yellowstone works. Even wolves in true wilderness. Wolves in even semi populated areas? after a while you don't have wolves anymore. You have packs of big dogs. Then you get a few poodles (or cows) snatched from wealthy donors to their local senators, and suddenly you have an "experimental" population that has no ESA protections...It's 100% sure cause its already happened.

CBD knows this. They know most other ppl don't. Save a wolf...send us money.

Too bad CBD forgot their roots and have become a group of attorneys trying to suppport their retainer fees.
I'm not scared of the dark, it's the things IN the dark that make me nervous. :)
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby tncaver » Feb 17, 2011 8:48 pm

derekbristol wrote:
tncaver wrote:If you aren't aware, the CBD wants the FEDs to reintroduce wolves into the original
48 states.


So you don't like wolves? I like wolves.

I don't like guns, cave closures or gates though. The CBD might have opinions on each of these topics, but I'm not sure the issues are really connected otherwise.

I also like GSMNP and would like to see it protected for future generations. I didn't realize that was a radical concept.


I can do without wolves in TN. We already have coyotes. As for protecting the GSMNP, that depends on what you mean by "protect".
That same word has been used and abused, as in "protecting" caves. Protect has come to mean gate, and or lock out. I care for
neither. I'm also not fond of guns but I own three and I was an expert with several different kinds in the army. I still don't like
guns but I know how to use them. Currently I never carry one when I go camping or caving. Coyotes don't scare me. I've even
seen large wild felines. Wolves run in packs and are a lot bigger than coyotes. I hope the EPA gets canned along with the rules
that let the CBD push people around. Bills have already been introduced in Congress to start reducing the EPA's power. I hope they pass.
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby Mudduck » Feb 17, 2011 8:56 pm

Please don't judge me entirely for this i've had a rotten day.

1. You can't save something for future generations thats in constant flux and evolution

2.I'm with TNcaver on this one. Keep your wolves where you are and out of the lower 48. Whats here already can become an ecentric dog food. Coyotes are bad enough as are Pumas which are making a comeback in our area.

3. Cave gates suck as do closures for any reason

4.When it comes to guns I'll just quote " from my cold dead fingers"(enough said)

Maybe this should be a "rant". I promise I'll be in a better mood tomorrow
I think I can...I think I can...I think I can
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Feb 18, 2011 12:51 am

Would someone like to explain to me how this is not a political discussion? I thought we were supposed to be talking about caves here. Geez guys, give it a rest for once. This amount of negativity is not healthy for anyone. If this is what you think about conservation, I would encourage you to search your mind and soul and make sure this is how YOU really feel. It sounds a whole lot like recycled talking points.

Being afraid of wolves is sort of like being afraid of the boogeyman. They don't attack people. There are about 437 things put there that are more likely to kill you, including the sun, spiders, and amoebas that can get in your nose while you swim. I hike in wolf country as often as I can, and I don't carry a gun. When you see them run a herd of elk, or hear them howling under the moon, there is nothing else like it. I hope you get to experience it one day.
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby tncaver » Feb 18, 2011 8:05 am

Anonymous_Coward wrote:Being afraid of wolves is sort of like being afraid of the boogeyman. They don't attack people.


The reason wolves aren't attacking people NOW is because they are not in the lower 48 states,YET, other than a very few Western states that are
not heavily populated like Wyoming. If wolves are reintroduced into the lower 48 states, they will eventually make their way to populated areas like
coyotes did. Then children, pets and livestock will begin to disappear much more rapidly than with coyotes. I'm sure a LOT of farmers who raise
livestock will not think too kindly of reintroducing wolves into their states. This subject is related
to caving because of the CBD. The Center for Biological Diversity is the same group that wants to have every bat in the country declared an
endangered species so that it can pursue it's agenda further. It's agenda is not necessarily good for this country. It's taken 250 years for farmers
to make their livestock safe from wolves. I would think they want to keep it that way. I for one don't want lawyers telling me when and where I
can go and forcing me to have to protect myself from something that wasn't a threat my entire life. Do you really want wolves in your back yard
Andy?
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby tncaver » Feb 18, 2011 8:22 am

Anonymous_Coward wrote:Would someone like to explain to me how this is not a political discussion? I thought we were supposed to be talking about caves here.


Politics has been forced upon cavers by the USFWS and the CBD. Until they stop trying to run cavers' lives, politics will be a part of our lives. :doh:
BTW, if conservation is stripping us from access to caves, then we can't go caving. And that is what I mean by overstepping it's bounds.
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby Extremeophile » Feb 18, 2011 9:17 am

Let me see if I've captured all the points you're making (for the first time ever on Cavechat) that are relevant to caving:

- all government is bad
- the CBD wants to take away all our freedoms and make this a Communist state
- all farming and ranching is universally good
- all wildlife is universally bad (unless it makes for good sport)
- guns are our friends
- 4-wheeling is fun and we should be able to driver wherever we damn well please - as God intended
- packs of wild coyotes are scary
- preservation is a ridiculous concept because the world is changing
- oh, and caves are being closed, which sucks

I think this needs to be moved to the rant thread
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby tncaver » Feb 18, 2011 9:43 am

derekbristol wrote:Let me see if I've captured all the points you're making (for the first time ever on Cavechat) that are relevant to caving:

- all government is bad
- the CBD wants to take away all our freedoms and make this a Communist state
- all farming and ranching is universally good
- all wildlife is universally bad (unless it makes for good sport)
- guns are our friends
- 4-wheeling is fun and we should be able to driver wherever we damn well please - as God intended
- packs of wild coyotes are scary
- preservation is a ridiculous concept because the world is changing
- oh, and caves are being closed, which sucks

I think this needs to be moved to the rant thread


So copy and paste your above statement to the rant thread with your name on it. :laughing: Meanwhile, this weekend, I'm going to be doing what almost no one on this forum seems to be interested in. Caving. Remember caving? It WAS the foundation of the NSS.
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby Extremeophile » Feb 18, 2011 10:06 am

Meanwhile, this weekend, I'm going to be doing what almost no one on this forum seems to be interested in. Caving. Remember caving? It WAS the foundation of the NSS.

I'm getting ready to head for the airport. I'll be surveying in Mammoth Cave this weekend. Next weekend I'll be in TN if you want to go caving again... we can discuss politics :grin:
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Re: Conservation overstepping it's bounds

Postby tncaver » Feb 18, 2011 10:17 am

derekbristol wrote:
Meanwhile, this weekend, I'm going to be doing what almost no one on this forum seems to be interested in. Caving. Remember caving? It WAS the foundation of the NSS.

I'm getting ready to head for the airport. I'll be surveying in Mammoth Cave this weekend. Next weekend I'll be in TN if you want to go caving again... we can discuss politics :grin:


I appreciate the offer Derek. However, I get more than enough politicking talk right here on CaveChat. However, if you are interested in surveying
in what could be a large private owned cave here in TN sometime this summer(not large by Mammoth standards), let me know.
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