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bronzzhorse wrote:The official policy of the NSS is that real cave formations should never be collected or displayed from ANY source for ANY purpose even for educational use since it might encourage others to collect irresponsibly."
So it's Ok to have them and display them, as long as they were about to be destroyed??? Isnt that "Collecting", and "displaying"....(Remember kids, "real cave formations should never be collected or displayed from ANY source for ANY purpose")
I was happily browsing your site when I began to come across “cave” items for sale........Members, and the Collective of the N.S.S. (National Speleological Society) spend THOUSAND if not MILLIONS of dollars EVERY YEAR in cave conservation/cleaning efforts. We also work to attain ownership of caves with Major Cave Conservatories....We, as cavers, spend countless hours of personal time and effort to STOP illegally harvested items from being removed,destroyed, sold, or displayed. You have to realize, caves are an IMPORTANT part of our ecosystem, as well as a MAJOR portion of the aquifer systems of the world. By selling them, you are implying to people that it is OK to remove them, and THAT is what leads Uneducated, Careless people into caves in search of their OWN “Cave Pretties”, and into inherently dangerous and DEADLY places and situations. Cave formations take hundreds, thousands and even MILLIONS of years to form, just so an uneducated person can DESTROY it in a matter of SECONDS.....Not to even MENTION the amount of formation destroyed in an effort to take out one little piece. They don’t just “grow back” either. Once all the formations have been destroyed or removed from the caves, what is the point of exploring caves and ADMIRING them..... some things are just best admired in their NATURAL environment......
Caving is a widely popular sport around the world, and cavers are very disheartened any time we find cave items for sale. We go to great lengths to see them in, and protect their natural environments.
I know this email will not stop you from selling cave items, as I understand, it IS your BUISNESS and livelyhood we are talking about..... I am just one person trying to make a point. PLEASE make the effort to make your "buyers" aware that collecting cave specimens from their natural environment is NOT recommended.
Thank you for your time,
Josh Dunn,
NSS# 60712
Josh
Thanks for you most interesting email. We are always amused when we get these threatening news flashes from people like yourself that have taken a holier than thou attitude for your particular self interest hobby. Who do you think puts these items out there for sale but you cavers yourself. This is the only way this stuff gets to the market place and you know it. So, don't take this attitude with us that we have done something wrong as it's your group that has been bringing this stuff out every since the first caves were ever breached.
You think that your caving activates does no harm ???? Wake up to the reality that just your breath and the fact that a new opening into the cave has changed the environment of the cave forever. Your nasty sweat, your foul breath, the skin flaking, and other nasty body fluids that you discharge into the cave also has changed the cave life cycle forever.
Yes, we are not as stupid you have made us out to be, and we realize that in a perfect world everything would remain in a virgin state, but this isn't the case as man feels like he has a right to explore his surroundings as he sees fit, with no regard to the out come of his transgressions.
So, wear your nice leather boots, gloves,and other animal made items into the caves that were killed for your pleasure. Don't be so selective in your attempts to save your special interest project while other peoples concerns are killed for your pleasure. Being a hypocrite is real easy for people like you that have a narrow view of life in general.
So, please do tell all your caver friends about us and remind them to stop " STEALING " the cave treasures that they remove from the caves. I have been dealing with cavers for the past 20 years and you are all the same. There is not a single one of you other out there that at one time or another hasn't removed a little something from the cave , just to prove that you actually were in that cave . This is a simple fact of life. It's just human nature to take samples.
So, please get off your high horse and do something that will really benefit mankind. Feed a homeless person, read a book to a child, help an elderly person with their yard work, pick up trash on your street, but most importantly KEEP YOUR NOSE OUT OF MY BUSINESS, AS YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE AS TO WHAT I AM REALLY ALL ABOUT. HAD YOU READ MY ABOUT US PAGE YOU WOULD REALIZE THAT YOU ATTACKED THE WRONG PERSON.
In fact for your information , yesterday we had a professor from Auburn University, in Alabama spend two days with us, where we donated $20,000 worth of Gems, mineral, fossils, quilting material,costumes, books, rock specimens, and numerous other materials that filled a cargo van. These materials will benefit a program called the BLACK BELT DISTRICT OF AMERICA. These are schools across the southern states that don't get the same funding as white schools do, but you wouldn't know about that, as like most Americans, you all have your own special interests that are more important than caring about some poor black kid getting an equal education.
So, the next time you think you have all your facts clear, don't assume that we are all as stupid and uncaring as you make us out to be. Take your head out of the cave and lets help make this a better world where your efforts are not so slanted to a single effort, broaden your out look on life and before you attack your next victim, make sure you have really checked them out to see what they are all about.
Have a great day, and remember, no more samples from the caves PLEASE !!!!
Kindest Regards,
Glenn Reed
COW---- CITIZEN OF THE WORLD
TITLES, CREDENTIALS, AND SELF APPOINTED TITLES ARE SO SUPERFICIAL AND PRETENTIOUS, AND WHO REALLY CARES ANYWAY ?????""
bronzzhorse wrote:As you can see, I was in NO way "threatening", nor "holier than thou"......
If you read your email aloud, and raise your voice each time there is a capitalized word, you'll see what I mean.
If you read your email aloud, and raise your voice each time there is a capitalized word, you'll see what I mean.
wyandottecaver wrote:Bronzehorse:
First, if you bother to read the post you linked to, I was not criticizing you. I (and several others) pointed that out to you at the time btw. I was informing you that your intent to use spelothems for educational talks is not in line with the NSS stated policy. (I disagree with Teresa's and NZ's interpretation of what the NSS policy IS. I think we agree on what it should BE)
wyandottecaver wrote:Teresa,
As you pointed out the NSS Policy says:
"Scientific collection is professional, selective, and minimal. The collecting of mineral or biological material for display purposes, including previously broken or dead specimens, is never justified, as it encourages others to collect and destroy the interest of the cave.
Emphasis mine. It doesn't qualify display, it doesn't say some displays, it doesn't say schools are OK but china cases aren't, it doesn't say what the NSS members might think. What our Official policy SAYS is that collection for display is NEVER justified. Period. You can think display means frivolous display, I can think it means display in my house, but the policy doesnt afford us the option of choosing.
wyandottecaver wrote:It doesn't qualify display, it doesn't say some displays, it doesn't say schools are OK but china cases aren't, it doesn't say what the NSS members might think. What our Official policy SAYS is that collection for display is NEVER justified. Period. You can think display means frivolous display, I can think it means display in my house, but the policy doesnt afford us the option of choosing.
You can maybe stretch it and say collecting or displaying for educational purposes qualifies....maybe.
You can think display means frivolous display, I can think it means display in my house, but the policy doesnt afford us the option of choosing.
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