This DISGUSTS me!!!!!

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Re: This DISGUSTS me!!!!!

Postby self-deleted_user » Jan 27, 2011 10:00 am

Well tbf the official NSS policy and what individual cavers think may vary.
And, rules of taking formations (actual laws) do vary, so in some caves you may be breaking the law and in others not.
So...actually I don't see huge inconsistencies.
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Re: This DISGUSTS me!!!!!

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Jan 27, 2011 10:13 am

In my opinion this has very little to do with what the law is in any given country. It is an ethical question. It's either okay or it's not.

And to answer an earlier question, NO it is not okay to take things out of a cave just because they are already broken.
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Re: This DISGUSTS me!!!!!

Postby graveleye » Jan 27, 2011 10:38 am

My mother has a formation and it's actually held up quite well after well more than a half a century out of the cave.
It was given to her by my grandmother who was a school teacher. One of her students gave it to her back in the 40s.
It will probably be mine one day. I have no idea which cave it came from so what can I do about it? Go lay it in the dirt in some cave?

Should I feel guilty about it? I don't really think so. I didn't remove it nor would I ever consider it, but the kid that did it did so back in a time when no one thought much about it.

The Ladds Mountain Cave Complex here in Georgia is a popular rockhound site when it comes to formation collecting. A hundred years ago there was a massive cave there, but it was quarried away to the point that there are only a few holes left. With permission from the county (it's a landfill now) you can go in there and knock yourself out collecting anything you want. Since the damage was already done with the eradication of the cave many years ago, I don't see much of a problem with people taking what they want.

Anywhere else though.... bop them on the head repeatedly, with a rock hammer.
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Re: This DISGUSTS me!!!!!

Postby self-deleted_user » Jan 27, 2011 10:43 am

That's...actually a p cool family heirloom.
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Re: This DISGUSTS me!!!!!

Postby Teresa » Jan 27, 2011 10:57 am

bronzzhorse wrote:The official policy of the NSS is that real cave formations should never be collected or displayed from ANY source for ANY purpose even for educational use since it might encourage others to collect irresponsibly."

So it's Ok to have them and display them, as long as they were about to be destroyed??? Isnt that "Collecting", and "displaying"....(Remember kids, "real cave formations should never be collected or displayed from ANY source for ANY purpose")


Even the NSS isn't as black and white about this as you seem to think, bronzzhorse:

"Scientific collection is professional, selective, and minimal. The collecting of mineral or biological material for display purposes, including previously broken or dead specimens, is never justified, as it encourages others to collect and destroy the interest of the cave. http://www.caves.org/info/policy.shtml"

Stal get collected for climate studies all the time, sometimes by NSS members. But it is under a permit, with some thought and not willy-nilly. I'm with wyandottecaver on this one.

The NSS is against encouraging active, current collecting for light, transient and sheerly greedy purposes. No where in the NSS policy is there a stricture against using historically collected stal for educational purposes *as long as* the message is included that this is something no longer done. Many responsible mineral collectors consider stal and petrified wood, of all things, as "leaverite" -- i.e., "leave 'r right there." Mineral societies often have such directives in their club rules of ethics.

There are plenty of ethical questions: "Is it better to blast the whole cave to bits if the cavern cannot be saved, or to save what might be valuable if possible?" "Is it OK to have a stal broken and retrieved when a cave was commercialized on the "touch table" and let people get it out of their system on this sacrificial piece or run the risk of people pawing/breaking off stuff in cave?" "What about people who cannot go into a cave? Is it OK to bring a bit of the cave out to them?" "Is it OK to let blind people touch a stal, but tell sighted people they need to refrain?" Where do we draw the difference between the needs of people and their mere wants?

The world isn't black and white. All we can do is encourage people to think before they do something which cannot be undone, and not to become part of the problem.

My basic analogy is this: killing and hurting people is wrong. Sometimes there are exceptions to both rules, such as self-defense and surgery. You just have to determine where the greater good is. And everyone has a different tolerance for such things.
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Re: This DISGUSTS me!!!!!

Postby bronzzhorse » Jan 27, 2011 6:25 pm

Maybe I was out of line, but I e-mailed the owner of the site after I first found it. Here is My email.
I was happily browsing your site when I began to come across “cave” items for sale........Members, and the Collective of the N.S.S. (National Speleological Society) spend THOUSAND if not MILLIONS of dollars EVERY YEAR in cave conservation/cleaning efforts. We also work to attain ownership of caves with Major Cave Conservatories....We, as cavers, spend countless hours of personal time and effort to STOP illegally harvested items from being removed,destroyed, sold, or displayed. You have to realize, caves are an IMPORTANT part of our ecosystem, as well as a MAJOR portion of the aquifer systems of the world. By selling them, you are implying to people that it is OK to remove them, and THAT is what leads Uneducated, Careless people into caves in search of their OWN “Cave Pretties”, and into inherently dangerous and DEADLY places and situations. Cave formations take hundreds, thousands and even MILLIONS of years to form, just so an uneducated person can DESTROY it in a matter of SECONDS.....Not to even MENTION the amount of formation destroyed in an effort to take out one little piece. They don’t just “grow back” either. Once all the formations have been destroyed or removed from the caves, what is the point of exploring caves and ADMIRING them..... some things are just best admired in their NATURAL environment......
Caving is a widely popular sport around the world, and cavers are very disheartened any time we find cave items for sale. We go to great lengths to see them in, and protect their natural environments.
I know this email will not stop you from selling cave items, as I understand, it IS your BUISNESS and livelyhood we are talking about..... I am just one person trying to make a point. PLEASE make the effort to make your "buyers" aware that collecting cave specimens from their natural environment is NOT recommended.

Thank you for your time,
Josh Dunn,
NSS# 60712

As you can see, I was in NO way "threatening", nor "holier than thou"...... However, Here is the reply I finally got today.
Seems like this guy REALY doesnt like cavers.....seems to think WE are the reason for this...
Josh
Thanks for you most interesting email. We are always amused when we get these threatening news flashes from people like yourself that have taken a holier than thou attitude for your particular self interest hobby. Who do you think puts these items out there for sale but you cavers yourself. This is the only way this stuff gets to the market place and you know it. So, don't take this attitude with us that we have done something wrong as it's your group that has been bringing this stuff out every since the first caves were ever breached.
You think that your caving activates does no harm ???? Wake up to the reality that just your breath and the fact that a new opening into the cave has changed the environment of the cave forever. Your nasty sweat, your foul breath, the skin flaking, and other nasty body fluids that you discharge into the cave also has changed the cave life cycle forever.
Yes, we are not as stupid you have made us out to be, and we realize that in a perfect world everything would remain in a virgin state, but this isn't the case as man feels like he has a right to explore his surroundings as he sees fit, with no regard to the out come of his transgressions.
So, wear your nice leather boots, gloves,and other animal made items into the caves that were killed for your pleasure. Don't be so selective in your attempts to save your special interest project while other peoples concerns are killed for your pleasure. Being a hypocrite is real easy for people like you that have a narrow view of life in general.
So, please do tell all your caver friends about us and remind them to stop " STEALING " the cave treasures that they remove from the caves. I have been dealing with cavers for the past 20 years and you are all the same. There is not a single one of you other out there that at one time or another hasn't removed a little something from the cave , just to prove that you actually were in that cave . This is a simple fact of life. It's just human nature to take samples.
So, please get off your high horse and do something that will really benefit mankind. Feed a homeless person, read a book to a child, help an elderly person with their yard work, pick up trash on your street, but most importantly KEEP YOUR NOSE OUT OF MY BUSINESS, AS YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE AS TO WHAT I AM REALLY ALL ABOUT. HAD YOU READ MY ABOUT US PAGE YOU WOULD REALIZE THAT YOU ATTACKED THE WRONG PERSON.
In fact for your information , yesterday we had a professor from Auburn University, in Alabama spend two days with us, where we donated $20,000 worth of Gems, mineral, fossils, quilting material,costumes, books, rock specimens, and numerous other materials that filled a cargo van. These materials will benefit a program called the BLACK BELT DISTRICT OF AMERICA. These are schools across the southern states that don't get the same funding as white schools do, but you wouldn't know about that, as like most Americans, you all have your own special interests that are more important than caring about some poor black kid getting an equal education.
So, the next time you think you have all your facts clear, don't assume that we are all as stupid and uncaring as you make us out to be. Take your head out of the cave and lets help make this a better world where your efforts are not so slanted to a single effort, broaden your out look on life and before you attack your next victim, make sure you have really checked them out to see what they are all about.
Have a great day, and remember, no more samples from the caves PLEASE !!!!

Kindest Regards,
Glenn Reed
COW---- CITIZEN OF THE WORLD
TITLES, CREDENTIALS, AND SELF APPOINTED TITLES ARE SO SUPERFICIAL AND PRETENTIOUS, AND WHO REALLY CARES ANYWAY ?????""


Just thougth some of you might find this interesting. Seems to have an additude of "Someone else is destroying the world, WE might as well profit from it while we can"
Also note the point about "Black schools dont get the funding of white schools".... Umm forgive me, but wasnt segregation abolished MANY years ago????
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Re: This DISGUSTS me!!!!!

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Jan 27, 2011 6:37 pm

bronzzhorse wrote:As you can see, I was in NO way "threatening", nor "holier than thou"......


Josh,

While I agree with your viewpoint, and see that you were trying to do something positive here, please be aware that using ALL CAPS online is normally construed as shouting. So while you may not have meant to threaten, that is the way that your email comes across with the ALL CAPS. If you read your email aloud, and raise your voice each time there is a capitalized word, you'll see what I mean.

I am sure this is why Glenn decided to use them in his response to you, since he had already been shouted at in your message.
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Re: This DISGUSTS me!!!!!

Postby bronzzhorse » Jan 27, 2011 7:28 pm

I dont understand how emphasising one or two words in a sentence with caps can be construed as "treatening" or shouting.... its called EMPHASISING the KEY words...the same as Italics, Bold, underlining and highlighting do???
I could understand if an entire message was capitalized or with "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" after every sentence, but I choose to use CAPITOL letters to emphasise...kind-of like WEBSTERS DICTIONARY does.... seem like the english language, it's gramar, and it's overall use has been comletely re-written with the advent of the internet and text. And no, I'm not shouting.....
If you read your email aloud, and raise your voice each time there is a capitalized word, you'll see what I mean.

Yes... IF you raise your voice....
but what if i raise my voice every time i see bold, italics, underlined, or highlighted words??? I would sure be yelling a lot.... People read WAY too much into something SOOOO simple as capitol letters..... sheesh

wait... come to think of it, i dont want anyone here thinking i am yelling at them, i dont want to give the wrong impression, so i'll rewrite that..................................

I dont understand how emphasising one or two words in a sentence with caps can be construed as "treatening" or shouting.... its called emphasising the key words... you know... the same as Italics, Bold, underlining and highlighting do???
I could understand if an entire message was capitalized or with "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" after every sentence, but I choose to use capitol letters to emphasise...kind-of like Websters Dictionary does.... seem like the english language, it's gramar, and it's overall use has been comletely re-written with the advent of the internet and text. And no, I'm not shouting.....
If you read your email aloud, and raise your voice each time there is a capitalized word, you'll see what I mean.

Yes... IF you raise your voice....
but what if i raise my voice every time i see bold, italics, underlined, or highlighted words??? I would sure be yelling a lot.... People read way too much into something sooooo simple as capitol letters..... sheesh


See??? the key parts of the sentences just dont stand out, do they????
And who appointed the person RECIEVING an email as the one who "decides" what "additude" the sender has???
When I read an email, i read the WORDS, not the VOICE i THINK spoke them, in the way i THINK they MAY have been said.
for all "Glenn" knows, the words in capitol were the ones where i was useing a BEGGING tone of voice...
REGARDLESS of my use of capitol letters, that still doesnt change the words he used, nor the way he reffered to me and the caving community.....as "foul breathed", "holier than thou", self interested", accusing "us" of "nasty body fluids that you discharge into the cave ", calling is "theives" saying that " it's your group that has been bringing this stuff out every since the first caves were ever breached"
Capitol letters or not, the reply i got was disrespectful, insulting, and downright RUDE!!!!!!!!
Last edited by bronzzhorse on Jan 27, 2011 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: This DISGUSTS me!!!!!

Postby wyandottecaver » Jan 27, 2011 7:44 pm

Bronzehorse:

First, if you bother to read the post you linked to, I was not criticizing you. I (and several others) pointed that out to you at the time btw. I was informing you that your intent to use spelothems for educational talks is not in line with the NSS stated policy. (I disagree with Teresa's and NZ's interpretation of what the NSS policy IS. I think we agree on what it should BE) I in fact stated that, and in the same post (which you edited out) stated that I myself had collected material, but did not use them for displays. "raining on your parade" wasn't criticizing you, it was informing you of the NSS policy which you were obviously not familiar with.

So, I have in fact been VERY consistent. The NSS says (as I interpret it) collecting or displaying specimens outside judicious science is wrong, period. I don't agree. While I do agree that we should strive to protect sensitive areas and over-exploitation, I think we also need to recognize that if someone is collecting and selling specimens legally we shouldn't necessarily jump all over them.

I respect those who think that any collection and display is wrong. I just don't happen to agree.
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Re: This DISGUSTS me!!!!!

Postby Teresa » Jan 27, 2011 9:42 pm

wyandottecaver wrote:Bronzehorse:

First, if you bother to read the post you linked to, I was not criticizing you. I (and several others) pointed that out to you at the time btw. I was informing you that your intent to use spelothems for educational talks is not in line with the NSS stated policy. (I disagree with Teresa's and NZ's interpretation of what the NSS policy IS. I think we agree on what it should BE)


1) I quoted chapter and verse and provided attribution of what the NSS policy is. Anything further than that
all revolves around the word "display." As an NSS fellow with a geology degree and a lifelong "rockhound" who was on the CCMS board at one time, I've talked with people for 25 years about what the word "display" means. The overwhelming majority seem to think it means "display as a pretty object" for sheerly avaricious reasons--as if in a china cabinet; rather than use such objects (as if you were eating off the china as a place setting) to further the cause of cave conservation. Everyone agrees it's a pity that such pieces were broken and taken, no one agrees what to do about it to make things "right," and most seem to agree that discouraging further collection is a good thing, but to use a gentle touch (or existing law) to do the discouragement.

But remember too: there is no entity called the NSS. The NSS is the sum of it's members and what the members profess and attempt to do, which is obviously all over the map.
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Re: This DISGUSTS me!!!!!

Postby wyandottecaver » Jan 27, 2011 9:58 pm

Teresa,

As you pointed out the NSS Policy says:
"Scientific collection is professional, selective, and minimal. The collecting of mineral or biological material for display purposes, including previously broken or dead specimens, is never justified, as it encourages others to collect and destroy the interest of the cave.

Emphasis mine. It doesn't qualify display, it doesn't say some displays, it doesn't say schools are OK but china cases aren't, it doesn't say what the NSS members might think. What our Official policy SAYS is that collection for display is NEVER justified. Period. You can think display means frivolous display, I can think it means display in my house, but the policy doesnt afford us the option of choosing.

You can maybe stretch it and say collecting or displaying for educational purposes qualifies....maybe.
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Re: This DISGUSTS me!!!!!

Postby Teresa » Jan 27, 2011 10:53 pm

wyandottecaver wrote:Teresa,

As you pointed out the NSS Policy says:
"Scientific collection is professional, selective, and minimal. The collecting of mineral or biological material for display purposes, including previously broken or dead specimens, is never justified, as it encourages others to collect and destroy the interest of the cave.

Emphasis mine. It doesn't qualify display, it doesn't say some displays, it doesn't say schools are OK but china cases aren't, it doesn't say what the NSS members might think. What our Official policy SAYS is that collection for display is NEVER justified. Period. You can think display means frivolous display, I can think it means display in my house, but the policy doesnt afford us the option of choosing.


Collection for display...No. Not acceptable. But displaying or using the already collected items under previous mores...that is not addressed, and we're on our own there.

The NSS policy are guidelines, anyway. They don't have the force of law.
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Re: This DISGUSTS me!!!!!

Postby bronzzhorse » Jan 27, 2011 11:43 pm

wyandottecaver wrote:It doesn't qualify display, it doesn't say some displays, it doesn't say schools are OK but china cases aren't, it doesn't say what the NSS members might think. What our Official policy SAYS is that collection for display is NEVER justified. Period. You can think display means frivolous display, I can think it means display in my house, but the policy doesnt afford us the option of choosing.
You can maybe stretch it and say collecting or displaying for educational purposes qualifies....maybe.


I really dont think that using a specimen of anything (cave related or otherwise) for educational purposes qualifies as "display"...One example comes quickly to mind.....
They use cadavers to teach medical students, so is that "displaying" a corpse????.... :shrug: .

Now, for just a second, if you will, take "The NSS" and "Policy" out of the picture. If a geologist brings Gems to a school, for, or as part of an educational presentation, and uses them as "examples of what the geological processes of the earth can form", is that "displaying" the gems??? IMHO it is not. Why? because it is being utilized as an educational example, presented by a knowledgeable expert. They cant just load up students and take them out on a gem hunt around the globe. Most schools (at least in my area) either cant or just plain wont take kids on field trip to any place (I think caves fall into this category) that shows even the slightest hint of risk of any form.I'm sure they have their reasons, and their is no point in arguing with the school sytems, but we went when I was a kid, even to a cave, one called Cedar Creek Cave, so field trips must be offending or scaring someone somewhere. How are children in areas with little or no caves to speak of ever supposed to learn about them? Do they not deserve to know since they dont have caves??? Granted, Pictures, slideshows, and videos can do as much. I will give you that. One could put together a very informative, extremely educating presentation without using one single piece of cave colected specimen. But I also think that a lot of the children you might not have reached without a "hands on" specimen would be much more interested if they had an example or two directly in front of them. (Just think of the kids with attention disorders. they NEED something to keep their interest.) Somehow I just dont see that as "display".
Also, as to not come across as comletely unreasonable, I do believe that part of the difference lies in the actual "presentation" of the specimens... I totally agree that if someone has a big elaborate arrangement, one that screams "look what I have!!!" then yes, I could see considering that as "display", even "showing off". However, if a minimal amount of "samples" are brought in without fanfare, shown at the appropriate time, and then put away, then no, I dont agree that that is also "display"

You can think display means frivolous display, I can think it means display in my house, but the policy doesnt afford us the option of choosing.


The thing is, we arent "choosing" between the two. I think you are reading into the policy that simply showing the specimens to anyone at any time for any reason is "display"
We are not discussing "display in your house", nor "frivilous display".... in my opinion it is not a matter of "display" to begin with. I just cannot see how using anything for educational purposes only as being "display"
I just keep thinking back to school, when someone would come in and get us out of class, they never said We are going to have a "display" after lunch.... WE were always told that there was an "Educational Presentation"
See the difference??? "Display"... "Educational Presentation"... I see a difference there.....Maybe it's just me, but I find a difference between "displaying" and "utilizing as an educational tool".

Remember the NSS Mission Statement:
The National Speleological Society (NSS) is a non-profit membership organization dedicated to the scientific study of caves and karst; protecting caves and their natural contents through conservation, ownership, stewardship, and public education; and [b]promoting responsible cave exploration and fellowship among those interested in caves.[/b]

Touching back to the original topic of this tread, I see a major major difference between using a couple speleothems as a tool for education the youth about caves and responsible caving practices, and Selling them to tourist to put some cash in the ole' pocket. That is not teaching responsible caving anything!!!

Also, wyandottecaver,
I know you and I have had our little "spats" :argue: , and I would like to apologize if I have come across having a problem with you... I am just very passionate about my beliefs and opinions. I am not as close-minded as I may come across, and I do take the time to consider all others points-of-view, as well as try to look at things from others prespectives, "put myself in their shoes" so to speak. I guess me and you just seem to have "difference of opinion" on more things than most folks.....or maybe im just a D**k....... I dont know.... either way, I'm sorry if I come across that way.... CHEERS!!!!
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Re: This DISGUSTS me!!!!!

Postby bronzzhorse » Jan 27, 2011 11:58 pm

Also..... on the note of "Policy" this, "policy" that, if you will reffer to the NSS Conservation Policy Page ( http://www.caves.org/info/policy.shtml ), you will also see that the policy states
"The Society encourages projects such as:
Establishing cave preserves
Placing entrance gates where appropriate
Opposing the sale of speleothems
Supporting effective protective measures
Cleaning and restoring over-used caves
Cooperating with private cave owners by providing them knowledge about their cave and assisting them in protecting their cave and property from damage during cave visits
Encouraging commercial cave owners to make use of their opportunity to aid the public in understanding caves and the importance of their conservation."

Emphasis on the "Opposing the sale of speleothems"
You stated that the "policy doesnt afford us the option of choosing".
So that would inherently mean that they "dont afford us the option of choosing" which Speleothems we oppose the sale of, wouldnt it?????
Policy doesnt say "Speleothems from mexico and china are ok to sale". it doesnt say "its ok as long as it feeds a peasant". it doesnt say "its ok to sell them as long as they were legally harvested".
It says "opposing the sale of speleothems"....... PERIOD.
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Re: This DISGUSTS me!!!!!

Postby Chads93GT » Jan 28, 2011 12:20 am

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

This thread makes me laugh.
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