Odd bones found in cave of WV

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Re: Odd bones found in cave of WV

Postby WVCaver2011 » Dec 31, 2008 3:51 pm

mmmm... That could very well be a possiblility with all the rocks and bones in the cave. I know that first picture is the skull remains but the bad news is that is has been crushed to bits as you could tell by a killer rock that fell 40 feet. Good thing that wasn't my skull!
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Re: Odd bones found in cave of WV

Postby baa43003 » Jan 21, 2009 6:16 pm

How did a skull that was thought to possibly be prehistoric suddenly get destroyed in 20 days time? Sounds like someone is not caving softly. :doh:
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Re: Odd bones found in cave of WV

Postby WVCaver2011 » Jan 21, 2009 9:36 pm

That's what happens in vertical, relatively unexplored caves! Just to give you a mental picture of what I'm dealing with, I thought I would give you some detail of the area where the skull was located then, you should be more considerate in your next post. The area where the skull is located is directly in the path of falling rocks from a talus slope 45 vertical feet above where the skull was located. Trust me caving softly has nothing to do with it in this case. One rock the size of a baseball after falling 45 feet could strike this skull and literally crush the place where it hits. It doesn't matter what you do on this slope there is no way possible to avoid rocks falling down in this pit. The definition of a talus slope just in case you don't understand is--- a slope with rocks that piled up to it's steepest slope until the point where rocks start rolling off the surface. The bigger the rocks in the accumulation the steeper the slope is. On nearly all talus slopes you can take 3 steps forward and move one step back. In this case the rocks are fairly large most of them being bolders-- rocks 10" or larger in diameter therefore, they roll instead of slide and tend to go over the large 45 foot drop and hit bottom within less than a second. There hasn't been but 2 other groups in this cave other than us and that alone should allow you to understand! Rarely traveled surfaces expecially talus slopes have a tendency for rocks to break loose from the rocks in the matix. I don't know if you ever climbed up a talus slope before but it's like taking 3 steps forward and one step back because you start sliding. Anyway, I figured out by a well know paleontologist of this area Fred Grady that if the bones are yellow like these were than the animal wasn't fossilized. This means that it was probably a bear or some other sort of animal. Based on the eye sockets this animal had after doing some research and taking the only dinosaur class within 300 plus miles of here and having the best professor of science this area has to offer, I found out that the animal was nocturnal and was most likely an omnivore. I must have found a bear that had parts of its skull missing. There are only a few white bones in this cave and they are in a relatively no danger zone. I've talked to a few paleontologist and they had no interest of going into the cave because it's vertical and it's hard enough to carry your own weight out of the cave. That's why I offered to carry the bones out of the cave after using gloves and such. It would have been better than crushed bones!! I hope I gave you a good reason for the bones being crushed to bits and hope you understand that caving softly has nothing to do with crushed bones in this cave because of all the reasons above. Write back if you have any questions!!! :cave softly:
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Re: Odd bones found in cave of WV

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jan 22, 2009 9:21 am

baa43003 wrote:Sounds like someone is not caving softly. :doh:

Sounds like someone was making the whole thing up, and balked when we pressed for evidence. Of course, now I'll be accused of being an elitist and not encouraging new cavers and blah blah blah. Further, WVcaver2011 has made several fantastic, unsubstantiated claims to go along with this one.


WVCaver2011 wrote:The definition of a talus slope just in case you don't understand is

We all know what a talus slope is, and we've all successfully negotiated them without pouring avalanches of rock onto artifacts, other cavers, etc.


wyandottecaver wrote:Beyond that....I couldn't find anything skull-like in your 1st picture.

Neither could I.
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Re: Odd bones found in cave of WV

Postby baa43003 » Jan 22, 2009 10:52 am

First of all, I didn't mean to be inconsiderate, just obvious. While every situation is different, I believe it would be standard protocol to protect something possibly prehistoric by any means necessary. If these bones were thought to be so remarkable, and there was just no getting around this talus slope that people just had to traverse, I see no harm in gently relocating the items or constructing some kind of protective barrier. Since you don't me, I won't take offense to having what a talus slope is explained to me. So don't take offense if you already know this: You can't tell by a skull if an animal is nocturnal. Some people assume nocturnal animals must have big eyes. Think about a porcupine, weasel or skunk, nocturnal, small eyes, even for their body size. Animals with very large eyes (pronghorn and horses have the biggest), are active day and night. While their vision is excellant during daylight, it is poor at night so they use smell and hearing as their main senses. Where the eyes are located is based more on whether the animal is a prey or predator species. (For more info, see Mark Elbroch's Guide to North American Skulls) Luckily, I don't believe these bones are prehistoric, and from the first picture I am quite sure that is not a bear. It looks like a scapula is visible and it is totally the wrong shape for a bear, even a small one. Maybe the bear bones are not the ones photographed? On the other hand, I applaud your enthusiasm and pusuit in trying to identify this find and I know you feel bad for the loss of the skull. This is a good lesson for all of us who seek out virgin booty. Think about what may be lying at the bottom of the pit you just found before tossing a rock in, and consider what rocks dislodged from a talus slope might land on.
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Re: Odd bones found in cave of WV

Postby driggs » Jan 22, 2009 11:10 am

WVCaver2011 wrote:... you should be more considerate in your next post.


Allen, I'd like to publicly give some advice.

You have got an incredible track record for making unbelievable, uneducated, and frankly laughable conjectures based on misunderstood or insignificant evidence. In a very short amount of time, you've completely discredited yourself, embarrassed your fellow cavers and students of science by setting such a poor example, and seem to be crossing a very dangerous line of being condescending or insulting to others based on what you believe to be some amount of experience or knowledge.

Every caver knows what a talus slope is, especially someone with an NSS number seventeen-thousand lower than yours. If you knocked a rock onto something that you believe to be "prehistoric fossils", you were not caving softly. Taking an undergraduate course on dinosaurs doesn't qualify you to identify mammal fossils, nor can you tell that it is nocturnal by its eye sockets.

Please, STOP making these ludicrous statements. If you want to learn, ask questions and listen. Go out and cave, study karst geology for a few years before you make hypotheses about cave systems, regional geology, or the mass genocide of bats. Go join a grotto and cave with real cavers, who might teach you a few things that will help (like how not to kill yourself on rope). But do yourself a favor and stop making a fool of yourself.
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Re: Odd bones found in cave of WV

Postby WVCaver2011 » Jan 22, 2009 12:17 pm

First of all, I have already found this cave to be multiple times larger than it previously recorded. It takes only common sense to realize that when you have fluctuating water it's coming from somewhere and not just by osmosis! This water level rose nearly 5 feet in about a week and hasn't dropped since. You may think these are ludacris statements but what it really becomes in reality is common sense! The blog I wrote up is just my opinions of what is out there and is to help me find out what I've learned and understood wrong! That way in the next cave I explore/map I will understand more than what I did in the first cave and have all my thoughts on the web that way I can check back and understand my resoning and see if it is liable. Yes, I have looked back at my blog and read over the beginnig parts and thought what the hell was I thinking but some of the parts are reasonable and those will go with me to the next cave as for the rest, they will be discarded! I'm sure if you ever done this strategy you would know to that after you learn a bit more you'd do the same things as well! Just like me, When I first started off with this cave I didn't have but one Geology class under my belt and didn't even have a rope or a harness to get into this cave and had to rely on others. Now I have ropes, a frog system,etc! I've not seen one problem with me going in and out of this cave on rope! Maybe you would but you've had more expiriance than I have! Let me learn the way I learn and you can learn the way you learn! The only thing you've done is argue with me you haven't given me any advice so, why should I believe you? Just because you have a lower NSS number than me doesn't really mean you've been caving longer although you probably have. I know of many older expirianced cavers that have never been an NSS member! Way to treat a fellow state member! Are you jealous of what I've found? You know what, why don't you come on over to the cave and see for yourself if you think I'm full of guano! See for yourself before you start babbling under your breath behind your computer! I'm still waiting on people to help me out if anyone is interested! I have a bunch of leads and one has to be bolt climbed to. Please stop arguing with me I'm only trying to learn the way I learn! I have my sources for learning and one includes you guys. Just correct me if I'm wrong you don't have to basically yell at me for being a caver of a new generation! I'm learning just as you guys did only most of you guys didn't have internet when you were younger so, that's the difference between you generation and mine. We can learn things faster by combining expiriance and the internet! Just observing and studying won't help you make connections that quickly unless you have the education to back it up! I don't but I'm working on it so, while i'm working on it I would like for you guys to help me out! Are you in. :boxing: :cavingrocks:
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Re: Odd bones found in cave of WV

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jan 22, 2009 12:56 pm

WVCaver2011 wrote:That way in the next cave I explore/map

Have you already been surveying and drafting this one? I'd be interested to see the result, though of course if you're going to post anything please strip out the location information.

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Re: Odd bones found in cave of WV

Postby WVCaver2011 » Jan 22, 2009 4:28 pm

I've been doing some minor data gathering for now! I have measurements of the drops. I can't really do much more until the flood waters go down in the cave! I have a rough drawing that I've started on the cave and am updating it here and there! I will get it out of my car here in a little while and see If I can take a picture of it with my camera since I don't have a scanner. Then, i'll post what I have by means of a rough sketch. :boxing:
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Re: Odd bones found in cave of WV

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jan 22, 2009 4:46 pm

WVCaver2011 wrote:Then, I'll post what I have by means of a rough sketch.

Oh, I thought when you said you were mapping the cave, you meant you were surveying it. That's how we make cave maps! I know you were saying you'd discovered roughly two miles of passage not shown on the original map, but it sure would be hard to estimate that kind distance without any actual data to confirm it.

Survey is what turns our stories into fact. Without data, stories are just... stories.
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Re: Odd bones found in cave of WV

Postby wyandottecaver » Jan 22, 2009 6:58 pm

Jeff,

I generally respect your posts and opinions here but in this case IMHO your on the verge of being an A**.

I have read his posts in several of these threads and while Allen certainly appears rough around the edges from an organized caver standpoint and obviously has no kind of formal science background, his posts certainly do not seem to be fabricated and he seems to truly be simply an enthusiastic if unpolished caver. My guess is he is also young. Sketch maps were the norm not so long ago and many still get submitted to state surveys today. In fact, I think the only maps of Camps Gulf and Ellisons i've seen were sketch maps! I have been on at least 2 trips where animal remains, including 1 skull (pig) were damaged by otherwise good cavers who were simply careless and not paying attention, and that was in walking passage. I see people make wild claims about stuff they obviously are mistaken about all the time on cave chat. Just because your wrong doesn't mean your lying or trying to be deceptive. Its also not hard to see why he might get a bit defensive based on various responses. Finally, he isn't the only one fond of long single paragraph posts :tonguecheek:
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Re: Odd bones found in cave of WV

Postby WVCaver2011 » Jan 22, 2009 9:30 pm

wyandottecaver wrote:Jeff,

I generally respect your posts and opinions here but in this case IMHO your on the verge of being an A**.

I have read his posts in several of these threads and while Allen certainly appears rough around the edges from an organized caver standpoint and obviously has no kind of formal science background, his posts certainly do not seem to be fabricated and he seems to truly be simply an enthusiastic if unpolished caver. My guess is he is also young. Sketch maps were the norm not so long ago and many still get submitted to state surveys today. In fact, I think the only maps of Camps Gulf and Ellisons i've seen were sketch maps! I have been on at least 2 trips where animal remains, including 1 skull (pig) were damaged by otherwise good cavers who were simply careless and not paying attention, and that was in walking passage. I see people make wild claims about stuff they obviously are mistaken about all the time on cave chat. Just because your wrong doesn't mean your lying or trying to be deceptive. Its also not hard to see why he might get a bit defensive based on various responses. Finally, he isn't the only one fond of long single paragraph posts :tonguecheek:

Thanks Wyandottecaver,
You're a true caver with a kind heart. This world could use more cavers like you!! :waving:
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Re: Odd bones found in cave of WV

Postby cavingcricket » Jan 22, 2009 11:55 pm

xcathodex wrote:PS - I will pay you a monthly allowance if you start using paragraphs


Thats just low!! :down: Just keep doing what you are doing wvcaver Ifor one enjoy reading your post.
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Re: Odd bones found in cave of WV

Postby WVCaver2011 » Jan 23, 2009 12:04 am

cavingcricket wrote:
xcathodex wrote:PS - I will pay you a monthly allowance if you start using paragraphs


Thats just low!! :down: Just keep doing what you are doing wvcaver Ifor one enjoy reading your post.

Thanks cavingcricket,
I appreciate your help. It's just some people that no matter what you say they just keep arguing. I personally think it's childish but, I have to stand my ground in cases like these! i may be less expirianced but I'm gathering information through my writtings and am allowing others to view and give feedback. I don't see any problems in that do you? :shrug:
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Re: Odd bones found in cave of WV

Postby cavingcricket » Jan 23, 2009 12:16 am

Nope,I dont see a problem with it at all.
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