Scallops on cave walls.

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Postby Marbry » Jul 12, 2007 2:57 pm

Dwight wrote:
Marbry wrote:Actually they should probably be called flow notches or something since they are really the inverse of scallops.


Perhaps, though the online definition below shows that our confusion here reflects a language wide confusion.

scallop - one of a series of rounded projections (or the notches between them) formed by curves along an edge . . .


Exactly, the projections are not the rounded part. If the wall with the scallops were a 2D surface and you could walk to the other side, then that other side would actually be scalloped. Semantic details I suppose.
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Scallops and suds??

Postby spudlunker » Jul 13, 2007 9:05 pm

I happen to know that there will be research utilizing scallops presented at the geology poster session on Wednesday morning (at NSS2007)...primarily because it's one of my students. Those interested could plan on meeting there to discuss, or set a time to meet for lunch and discuss, scallops. :argue:
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Postby Bruce Rogers » Jul 27, 2007 6:06 pm

Listeros,

The question was was asked about scallops in limestone versus dolomite bedrock-hosted caves, as to if they only form in horizontal caves; and if they are present in lava tubes.

1. Does not matter if the bedrock is dolomite or limestone - both can be equally soluble in acidic ground water. In many Western states caves the bedrock is metamorphosed to marble with accompanying partial to total dolomitization. In cave passages where the water flow was under pressure scallops form regardless of bedrock composition.

2. in some of these same caves the passages are anywhere from *nearly* horizontal to "nearly* vertical and are scalloped - the scallops form in response to water movement and not gravity.

3. Lava tubes are an entirely different hydraulic regime (yes, liquid lava is a fluid that *may* behave similarly to ground water). Lava is very viscous compared to ground water and *generally* moves at a much faster pace. Because lava is so viscous or "sticky", it does not form scallops because scallops partly form from solution and partly from abrasion. In lava tubes there may be other tube surface features that form shearing or tearing of the plastic inner lining along the inside of the tube wall.

Cheers,
Bruce Rogers, Earth scientist on a good day
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Re: Scallops on cave walls.

Postby Rane Curl » Jan 30, 2009 1:00 am

I only just discovered this thread - a dozen years late. But still, caves move slowly too....

IN a scallop, the steep side is upstream.
AT the crest of a scallop, the steep side is downstream.
This distinction is the source of the seeming contradictory statements in the literature.

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Re: Scallops on cave walls.

Postby Robert Byers » Mar 19, 2009 12:50 am

I found interesting this thread and others .
I see scallops as indeed from turbulent water with vortices within powerful water. Direction is just the direction of any vortices at any moment perhaps. They just tend to go in a general direction of the flow.
Instead of being from floods within these tunnels why is not more likely they are from the origin of the tunnel and merely a last act? Has anuone ever seen a scallop in a place it wasn't a few days or so before?
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Re: Scallops on cave walls.

Postby Ralph E. Powers » Mar 19, 2009 9:46 am

I happen to adore scallops braised in butter and a hint of garlic. To me they're the best type of shell fish... :laughing:


I was taught (in Alpine cave regions) how to read scalloped walls of a cave in case I get *ahem* misplaced or turned around... and know that (for that particular cave...which has several miles of twisty passages all alike) to follow the upstream of the passage by reading the scalloping on the walls and ergo eventually find one's way out. :big grin:
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Re: Scallops on cave walls.

Postby plicpriest1 » Mar 29, 2009 11:42 pm

In addition to butter and garlic, i find a hint of lemon to just the trick.

Now than, How about slowwwww water, what will that do?
And: how fast does this water have to go to create a scallop?

Now im not a geologist of any sort, so yall have to be patient with me. ive got alot of questions, and not alot of brains. Actually ive been told ive got poo for brains. I find the internet is a great way to learn. :cofee:
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Re: Scallops on cave walls.

Postby gulley.jason » Apr 19, 2009 10:03 pm

slow water = big scallops. fast water = small scallops.
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Scallops on cave ceilings.

Postby pub » Dec 12, 2009 9:39 pm

I wonder why the scallops in several of our caves are only on the ceiling? Is the same dynamics described above involved for these scallops? Here is an example from Binmubon (Hole-in-the-Ground) Cave in our town:

Image
Photo by Charles M. Nelson

Image
Closeup by Rawen Balmaña

Which way did da waters flow?
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Re: Scallops on cave ceilings.

Postby Squirrel Girl » Dec 12, 2009 9:41 pm

pub wrote:I wonder why the scallops in several of our caves are only on the ceiling? Is the same dynamics described above involved for these scallops? Here is an example from Binmubon (Hole-in-the-Ground) Cave in our town:

Which way did da waters flow?


I think you don't have scallops on the floor because the floor is covered by sediment. I can't tell the direction because the camera view angle and flash make it tricky.
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Re: Scallops on cave ceilings.

Postby pub » Dec 13, 2009 5:31 am

Squirrel Girl wrote:I think you don't have scallops on the floor because the floor is covered by sediment. I can't tell the direction because the camera view angle and flash make it tricky.
Howdy Barbara, those are ceiling shots of the same general area. I know what you mean about the tricky lighting, it's like an optical delusion, what’s an inny or outy. The best I can tell is the dark areas are shadows of the scallop crests, if that makes sense.
Balincaguin comes from the Zambal phrase, "Bali lan caguing" meaning "house of bats."
This was the former name of the Municipality of Mabini, Pangasinan, when it was part of the Province of Zambales (of Mt. Pinatubo Volcano fame).
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Re: Scallops on cave ceilings.

Postby hewhocaves » Jan 17, 2010 3:08 pm

Squirrel Girl wrote:
pub wrote:I wonder why the scallops in several of our caves are only on the ceiling? Is the same dynamics described above involved for these scallops? Here is an example from Binmubon (Hole-in-the-Ground) Cave in our town:

Which way did da waters flow?


I think you don't have scallops on the floor because the floor is covered by sediment. I can't tell the direction because the camera view angle and flash make it tricky.



The scallops could predate the sediment.

However, those look like they may be ceiling cupolas formed by preferential dissolution of the ceiling with aggressive water under high CO2 conditions. I forget the details at the moment, but its either under nearly pipe-full conditions (where only the cupolas are filled with CO2) or totally pipe-full conditions.

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Re: Scallops on cave ceilings.

Postby pub » Jan 19, 2010 11:07 am

hewhocaves wrote:those look like they may be ceiling cupolas formed by preferential dissolution of the ceiling with aggressive water under high CO2 conditions. I forget the details at the moment, but its either under nearly pipe-full conditions (where only the cupolas are filled with CO2) or totally pipe-full conditions.

John, is this what you're referring to:

Philippe Audra, et al. wrote:Image
Degassing from deep water in the confined system have charged the atmosphere in carbon dioxide. The atmosphere in contact with the water table had to be relatively hot to cause condensation in contact with the colder walls. Combined with the CO2 rich atmosphere, condensation was aggressive and corroded the emerged walls and ceiling. In the same way as in an aquatic environment, air convection currents must have occur, explaining regular cupola form of the ceiling in which more reduced size cupolas are fit.

Source: HYPOGENIC CAVES IN PROVENCE (FRANCE). SPECIFIC FEATURES AND SEDIMENTS
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Re: Scallops on cave walls.

Postby rlboyce » May 18, 2011 3:06 pm

Forgive me if these are very stupid questions, but if the answers lie in previous posts they don't seem to be obvious. I've looked in vain for answers on the internet... perhaps these answers can only be found in obscure scientific literature?

  • Do scallops form under phreatic or vadose conditions?
  • Does scalloping occur due to corrasion or corrosion?
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Re: Scallops on cave walls.

Postby Phil Winkler » May 18, 2011 3:23 pm

You may want to buy Art Palmer's book:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=4859&p=39699&hilit=+scallops#p39699

I think scallops are formed from water flow whether it be phreatic or vadose. Also I think corrosion (dissolution?) is the forming process. Certainly lime and CO2 content play a part, too.
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