Long and Deep Cave List

[Cheryl Jones]

Considering Bob puts all that effort into compiling and updating the NSS cave list, surely the NSS could spare a little webspace that DOESN'T shut down after too many hits each month...?

Absolutely. My thought, too.

Huh? The list isn't stored on the NSS Web site. And the list isn't a project of the NSS.

Come on guys -- we take enough grief as it is for stuff we actually can effect. What happens with the long and deep list and its server are not the NSS's fault or responsibility!

The Geo2 Section tells us on their Web site that they maintain the list -- you could contact them with any suggestions you have. Some members are regulars on this Forum, I believe. (While Sections are a part of the NSS, each is an independent organization, with it's own accounting and non-profit status. They function within the Society guidelines.)

I let the the Web masters for the NSS IO page and the Geo2 Section know that there is a new URL for the long and deep list. Gary Bush quickly updated the NSS IO page. I haven't heard from the Geo2 Web master, and the NSS has no authority over their page.

So cut the NSS some slack. The URL link at least is correct on the NSS Web page.


Cheryl
NSS Director

[bsignorelli]

Come on guys -- we take enough grief as it is for stuff we actually can effect. What happens with the long and deep list and its server are not the NSS's fault or responsibility!

I think the comments were more meant to say that the L&D list is a valuable resource for the caving community and at the very least the NSS could donate webspace so Bob wouldn't have to use a free site that shuts down after too many hits.

Similar to the grotto webspace for $12 a year.

So cut the NSS some slack.

Why should we? Gotta keep them on their toes. :) If the NSS want's to make itself "valuable" to the average caver then they need to do stuff that impacts the average caver.

I postulate that more cavers will get use out of a reference tool such as the L&D list than the number of cavers who would go to GreatX or whatever other (money) pit the NSS delves into.

[NZcaver]

Come on guys -- we take enough grief as it is for stuff we actually can effect. What happens with the long and deep list and its server are not the NSS's fault or responsibility!

I think the comments were more meant to say that the L&D list is a valuable resource for the caving community and at the very least the NSS could donate webspace so Bob wouldn't have to use a free site that shuts down after too many hits.

Relax, Cheryl.

My previous comments were not intended to be a jab at the NSS. I realize the project is a result of hard work by Bob and those who contribute, and share the frustration of people who can't access the information because of the host site.

Obviously the list is not currently stored on the NSS website, so the inability to access it is not the "fault" of the NSS. Interesting that the following comment from you is no doubt factually correct, but the dissociative inference is clear:

While Sections are a part of the NSS, each is an independent organization, with it's own accounting and non-profit status. They function within the Society guidelines.

Surely the Society would do better if it actually had a more supporting attitude towards it's "front line" - it's internal organizations and membership - rather than spouting disclaimers? Or is that statement a bit too political for this thread? Perhaps Wayne should move it to Politics/Religion...


Anyway, since the list is entitled the "NSS Long and Deep Cave Lists" I figured it could be worth finding some space (and programming time) to list it somewhere on the NSS server. Or if not, then perhaps another free site without the monthly restrictions? Just my 2 cents...

[Cheryl Jones]

Come on guys -- we take enough grief as it is for stuff we actually can effect. What happens with the long and deep list and its server are not the NSS's fault or responsibility!

I think the comments were more meant to say that the L&D list is a valuable resource for the caving community and at the very least the NSS could donate webspace so Bob wouldn't have to use a free site that shuts down after too many hits.

Bob doesn't have to use the server/site he does. That was his choice, his decision. The Geo2 Section could place the list on their Web site, which is hosted on the NSS server. Wouldn't faze the NSS. That is between Bob and the Section -- the Geo2 Section maintains the list. As I said, direct your suggestions to the Section, or discuss with Bob.

Quote:
So cut the NSS some slack.

Why should we? Gotta keep them on their toes. :)

"Them" is us.

Cheryl

[Cheryl Jones]

Interesting that the following comment from you is no doubt factually correct, but the dissociative inference is clear:

While Sections are a part of the NSS, each is an independent organization, with it's own accounting and non-profit status. They function within the Society guidelines.

Surely the Society would do better if it actually had a more supporting attitude towards it's "front line" - it's internal organizations and membership - rather than spouting disclaimers?

That was a parenthetical comment to explain briefly to all readers how sections operate, and help explain why the NSS can't up and tell the Geo2 Section how to manage their projects, programs and/or Web sites. It is not unusual to meet, talk to, and hear from members don't understand this.

I don't know what "supporting attitude" you expected. I showed support for their Independence! That my statement somehow did a disservice to sections or all IOs is a real stretch.


Cheryl

[NZcaver]

I don't know what "supporting attitude" you expected. I showed support for their Independence! That my statement somehow did a disservice to sections or all IOs is a real stretch.

OK - I see your point about some independence being necessary for IOs. Despite standing by the sentiment expressed in my last post, I'll concede in this particular case my words may have been a bit of a stretch. That whole subject would be better discussed at some other time and place. After all - as you say - "them" is us, it's not "us and them". Well, sort-of.

If Bob and the Geo Section wish to move their list onto the NSS server, I'd like to think the NSS would be responsive to their needs.

So how's that for being more politically correct and on-topic...?

[Dwight Livingston]

Considering Bob puts all that effort into compiling and updating the NSS cave list, surely the NSS could spare a little webspace that DOESN'T shut down after too many hits each month...?

Absolutely. My thought, too.

Huh? The list isn't stored on the NSS Web site. :doh: And the list isn't a project of the NSS.

Come on guys -- we take enough grief as it is for stuff we actually can effect. What happens with the long and deep list and its server are not the NSS's fault or responsibility!

I thought NZ's idea was offered as something the NSS might do, not a complaint. By Cheryl's reaction, sounds like there has been some arguments going on about Bob's list, prior to this thread. Sorry that's the case. But it's still a good idea, one I'd support.

Dwight

[Cheryl Jones]

By Cheryl's reaction, sounds like there has been some arguments going on about Bob's list, prior to this thread. Sorry that's the case. But it's still a good idea, one I'd support.

There have been no arguments about The List or it's location that I'm aware of. Don't know why there would be.

I know you guys mean well and want what is best, but it seems "what we've got here is a failure to communicate." Let me try explaining this again.....Bob created and maintains the long and deep list on behalf of the Geo2 Section, who sponsors the progject. Bob chose where to locate the list on the WWW, maybe in conjunction with the Geo2 Section. (And I believe I can add with certainty: with no direction from any official in the NSS.)

The Geo2 Section's web site is included on the NSS's domain. If Bob and the Geo2 Section want to give The List a home on the Geo2 Web site (and thus on caves.org), then they are welcome and free to do so. This is a non-issue.

I thought NZ's idea was offered as something the NSS might do, not a complaint.

The NSS, Inc, cannot tell the Geo2 Section or Bob where to keep their list, or otherwise hijack it. The space is available on the NSS server if they want to use it.

It might be helpful to go to the source: Perhaps one of you with concerns about this could ask Bob why he chose to give The List a home on its current URL rather than the Geo2 site (and thus caves.org.) And go from there. Be sure to report back.

Cheryl

[Dwight Livingston]

The NSS, Inc, cannot tell the Geo2 Section or Bob where to keep their list, or otherwise hijack it. The space is available on the NSS server if they want to use it.

Well I wasn't proposing that the NSS command Bob to move the list! I expect there are better ways to implement the idea, if it is possible. I know Bob and will ask him about it next meeting, just to see what's going on. But aside from what Bob wants to do, does the NSS want to help sponsor the list in some way, or sponsor it more than it does already? I'd hate to go to Bob about it and then find out the NSS isn't interested for some reason. For me, it would a good and tangible benefit that the society could provide, at what seems to me might be a modest cost.

Dwight

[caverbob]

Are we all having fun or what. The lists were on-line before the NSS had its WEB site. I was asked at a GEO2 meeting many years ago if I wanted to move onto their WEB site, I just decided to keep it on the pipeline account as it was easier at the time. My site has just become more poplar and visited a lot more the last year so I have mirrored the site at http://www.caverbob.com/home.htm which should not go down because of lots of visits. The other reason is I have other links on my web page that has nothing to do with GEO2, my local caving groups, Gangsta Mappers, CRF and such. So just reset your pointers to my new site and all should be well in the caving world again And keep those updates and new info coming.

[Cheryl Jones]

Are we all having fun or what.

Yeah, boy! What a ride!

Thanks Bob, for giving us the scoop. But, hey, next time don't wait so long, leaving me to work so hard in the meantime.

Cheryl

[caverbob]

Got to give you someting to do Only get on here a few times a month. July 4 week its mappin/surveying in Mammoth Cave N.P. Got to keep it the longest cave

[George Dasher]

I've been away from my computer, but that's what I thought the "problem" was...

Bob's website just predates the NSS' website, and there has been no reason to move the list.

But I did think his job was an official NSS position. Or did I miss something in all the posts?

[caverbob]

I am a committee of one under GEO2

[Phil Winkler]

Bob,

I'll bet your committee meetings are exciting. Ever have any disagreements?