2011 Sera Cave Carnival

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Re: 2011 Sera Cave Carnival

Postby self-deleted_user » Apr 25, 2011 9:02 am

I could prob help Thursday night. I plan on caving lots though since ya know, I don't get to do that up here ;) but yeah Sai and I are leaving here to carpool down Thurs morning, I think it's a 9 hr drive, and then depending as to how late you are open Thursday night I could take a shift =)
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Re: 2011 Sera Cave Carnival

Postby Bill Putnam » Apr 25, 2011 11:37 pm

Amy,

If you and your friend have any trouble at all getting hooked up with cave trips and/or directions, come see me at the SCCi booth. I have maps and directions to every cave worth visiting in TAG. So does Andy Zellner and so does Buddy Lane. We will fix you up and make sure you cave till you drop. No kidding!

Bill

p.s. Give my love to Jean and Dave and those mean old Michigan cavers. Tell them to come South, where the Big Ones are.
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Re: 2011 Sera Cave Carnival

Postby ron_miller » May 2, 2011 10:22 pm

I have to attend for the SCCi booth and annual meeting, but the dog ban would cost us an extra $50 to board our very friendly Siberian Husky for the weekend, so I'll probably be going solo.

It's really unfortunate that so many caving events, particularly the TAG Fall Cave-In, have become dog-hostile. I understand that historically there have been a few bad apples that have allegedly spoiled it for everyone, but is it really such an enforcement/liability/noise/whatever issue that the organizers can't just require the dogs to always be on leash and under control like most campgrounds/parks that I've ever been to, instead of banning them from the entire event?
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Re: 2011 Sera Cave Carnival

Postby self-deleted_user » May 2, 2011 11:40 pm

Bill Putnam wrote:Amy,

If you and your friend have any trouble at all getting hooked up with cave trips and/or directions, come see me at the SCCi booth. I have maps and directions to every cave worth visiting in TAG. So does Andy Zellner and so does Buddy Lane. We will fix you up and make sure you cave till you drop. No kidding!

Bill

p.s. Give my love to Jean and Dave and those mean old Michigan cavers. Tell them to come South, where the Big Ones are.
Aww thanks Bill! See, I've heard every true caver figures out how to move south and that's why none are left in Michigan :tonguecheek: lol if I ever see them I"ll say hi, I've not seen 'em since last summer and I don't plan on going up north again. The only reason i would is if I can convince some capi friends of mine to try caving, haha.

I will for sure let you know! At least we will meet in person at last! I'm not sure what my friend is gonna do, he's been caving longer but really only done like 4 trips and doesn't have vertical and I want to do some vertical while I"m there. I know Marduke has some ideas (apparently an awesome cave his fav. one in tag so I can't wait!) and Kelly mentioned a trip too but I think that was the kids trip? I don't mean to be rude but most kids I can't *stand*. Put me in a room with some for more than 45min and I usually feel compelled to strangle a few at least. I can't imagine being trapped in a cave with them 0.o ha it's my best kept secret as I'm told I am awesome with kids and I teach a juniors class (which is like, 5-10 yr olds) karate and parents always think I was in grad school to become a elementary school teacher. :yikes: :yikes: :yikes: oh gods please no! haha some kids are ok I'll admit, but most...notsomuch. So I'm reluctant to go on that trip.

I can't wait to see cool peeps again, and meet new peeps! Now that I'm starting to know some folks, going to events like this isn't so scary for me. :)
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Re: 2011 Sera Cave Carnival

Postby NZcaver » May 3, 2011 2:17 am

ron_miller wrote:I have to attend for the SCCi booth and annual meeting, but the dog ban would cost us an extra $50 to board our very friendly Siberian Husky for the weekend, so I'll probably be going solo.

It's really unfortunate that so many caving events, particularly the TAG Fall Cave-In, have become dog-hostile. I understand that historically there have been a few bad apples that have allegedly spoiled it for everyone, but is it really such an enforcement/liability/noise/whatever issue that the organizers can't just require the dogs to always be on leash and under control like most campgrounds/parks that I've ever been to, instead of banning them from the entire event?

Ron, I've never attended SERA and I've never owned a dog - but I totally agree with you. And not just because I'm particularly partial to Siberian Huskies and other sled dog breeds.

These policies do suck, and all because of a few people who bring along untrained and/or ill-behaved dogs and don't bother taking control and responsibility for them at all times. Bad dog ownership just like bad parenting. Frankly I'd rather campgrounds ban children instead (at least the unruly ones). Damn, I guess that's something else Sungura and I have in common. :big grin:
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Re: 2011 Sera Cave Carnival

Postby UnderGroundEarth » May 3, 2011 7:46 am

ron_miller wrote:I have to attend for the SCCi booth and annual meeting, but the dog ban would cost us an extra $50 to board our very friendly Siberian Husky for the weekend, so I'll probably be going solo.

It's really unfortunate that so many caving events, particularly the TAG Fall Cave-In, have become dog-hostile. I understand that historically there have been a few bad apples that have allegedly spoiled it for everyone, but is it really such an enforcement/liability/noise/whatever issue that the organizers can't just require the dogs to always be on leash and under control like most campgrounds/parks that I've ever been to, instead of banning them from the entire event?


Ron, There is no happy medium here. You've either got people who want dogs or those who don't. We've recently had several complaints from allowing dogs at our Sewanee Mountain Grotto annual event, Pupfest (and for those who don't know - ironically it's not named after a pooch but rather Peter "Mudpuppy" Michaud). It's always that one or two bad dogs that ruin it for everyone. When you have Cavers saying they will not come to your event because dogs are allowed you have to take a step back and say who are we having the event for... Cavers or dogs? There are many other places we can take our dogs and I certainly take my dog, Jasper everwhere I can every opportunity I get. Kelly
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Re: 2011 Sera Cave Carnival

Postby mgmills » May 3, 2011 8:48 am

ron_miller wrote:I have to attend for the SCCi booth and annual meeting, but the dog ban would cost us an extra $50 to board our very friendly Siberian Husky for the weekend, so I'll probably be going solo.

It's really unfortunate that so many caving events, particularly the TAG Fall Cave-In, have become dog-hostile. I understand that historically there have been a few bad apples that have allegedly spoiled it for everyone, but is it really such an enforcement/liability/noise/whatever issue that the organizers can't just require the dogs to always be on leash and under control like most campgrounds/parks that I've ever been to, instead of banning them from the entire event?


I think "dog hostile" is a bit strong. In my experience cavers (at events) are worse than the "general population" about not keeping dogs leashed or with them. I've been to quite a number of caver events that allowed dogs and see about as many off leash as on leash. Lots of cavers think that the rule applies to all dogs except for theirs.

One example of what I mean is at last year's SERA Cave Carnival a dog was found leashed to a "stake out". He was howling because he had become tangled around trees, could not reach his water and was in full sun. No one was nearby. Myself and another person moved the dog to a shaded area and made sure he could reach his water dish. We also checked back several times until the owners returned to be sure he was OK.

Re: enforcement. . .most groups hosting an event have trouble getting enough staff to handle the "basics" much less police for dogs on leash or left unattended in camp.

Just my 2 cents.
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Re: 2011 Sera Cave Carnival

Postby self-deleted_user » May 3, 2011 11:01 am

NZcaver wrote:Frankly I'd rather campgrounds ban children instead (at least the unruly ones). Damn, I guess that's something else Sungura and I have in common. :big grin:
:exactly: and :D
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Re: 2011 Sera Cave Carnival

Postby cavergirl » May 3, 2011 1:24 pm

Eight vendors registered so far! Cookies and Gear, Ethel's Beads & Fossils, Inner Mountain Outfitters, On Rope 1, NSS Bookstore, Speleobooks,
UnderGroundEarth Photography, and One Life Outfitters.
:bananabat:
And entertainment is shaping up. Albert Ogden from the Terminal Siphons will be be bringing his "local" band for Saturday night. And Friday
night will be open mike, bring your instruments, sign up at registration to perform! And a friday night Drum circle is planned for later that night!
:rock band:
Last edited by cavergirl on May 4, 2011 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2011 Sera Cave Carnival

Postby UnderGroundEarth » May 3, 2011 1:29 pm

cavergirl wrote:Six vendors registered so far! Cookies and Gear, Ethel's Beads & Fossils, Inner Mountain Outfitters, On Rope 1, NSS Bookstore, Speleobooks.
:bananabat:
And entertainment is shaping up. Albert Ogden from the Terminal Siphons will be be bringing his "local" band for Saturday night. And Friday
night will be open mike, bring your instruments, sign up at registration to perform! And a friday night Drum circle is planned for later that night!
:rock band:



Chrys, Did ya'll not get the registration form for UnderGroundEarth Photography? I mailed it last Monday 04/25 so you should have received it by now.

Kelly
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Re: 2011 Sera Cave Carnival

Postby ron_miller » May 3, 2011 1:56 pm

Kelly,

I know there's no pleasing everyone, and appreciate all the work that you and the other volunteers are doing to make this event happen.

That said, just for the record, there will at least be a few cavers who will not be attending this SERA because dogs are NOT allowed. Good dog owners will not abandon their pets for the weekend, and if they don't have a dog-sitter available, they either have to shell out $$$ for boarding or just not attend the event. If I didn't have to be there for SCCi, I would not be attending SERA this year for that reason; Cathy almost certainly won't attend in order to avoid having to board our dog for the weekend.

I feel sorry for those who say they won't attend a caving event if dogs are allowed. They must never be able to walk in their neighborhood or visit any parks.

<sarcasm>
People get insanely wasted and become loud and obnoxious at these events. Some cavers don't attend caving events because of these inconsiderate boobs; perhaps we should consider having a "no humans" policy!
</sarcasm>

I know some dog owners don't obey leash rules, but don't agree that all the rule-abiding dog owners should have to suffer as well by having global bans. To address the enforcement problem, perhaps there could be a "zero-tolerance" policy with respect to leash rules; violate it once and you and your dog are gone with no refund!

Ron
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Re: 2011 Sera Cave Carnival

Postby UnderGroundEarth » May 3, 2011 2:24 pm

ron_miller wrote:I feel sorry for those who say they won't attend a caving event if dogs are allowed. They must never be able to walk in their neighborhood or visit any parks.


Those who said they would not attend because of dogs were people who had their tents peed on by dogs, were growled at by an agressive dog in the middle of the night when they got up to relieve themselves, dogs that begged for food while they were eating, etc... These are not people that don't like dogs, they just don't feel that they should have to deal with these types of situations at caving events. I'm all for dogs, don't get me wrong but like Martha said whose gonna police the dogs when it's hard enough to get volunteers to take care of all the other tasks that need tending too...
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Re: 2011 Sera Cave Carnival

Postby self-deleted_user » May 3, 2011 3:24 pm

rowland7840 wrote:
cavergirl wrote:Six vendors registered so far! Cookies and Gear, Ethel's Beads & Fossils, Inner Mountain Outfitters, On Rope 1, NSS Bookstore, Speleobooks.
:bananabat:
And entertainment is shaping up. Albert Ogden from the Terminal Siphons will be be bringing his "local" band for Saturday night. And Friday
night will be open mike, bring your instruments, sign up at registration to perform! And a friday night Drum circle is planned for later that night!
:rock band:



Chrys, Did ya'll not get the registration form for UnderGroundEarth Photography? I mailed it last Monday 04/25 so you should have received it by now.

Kelly
^V^

:woohoo: I can't wait! I'll be there too!!
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Re: 2011 Sera Cave Carnival

Postby ron_miller » May 3, 2011 7:06 pm

rowland7840 wrote:Those who said they would not attend because of dogs were people who had their tents peed on by dogs, were growled at by an agressive dog in the middle of the night when they got up to relieve themselves, dogs that begged for food while they were eating, etc..


Sad . . . all of these are not dog problems, they're dog owner problems. All of these problems could be eliminated after a couple of iterations of "zero tolerance" application.

I feel the same way about the wasted people who have kept me up vomiting and then dry heaving near my tent, yelling and screaming until dawn, etc. Can I get all of them banned as well, please?

Ron
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Re: 2011 Sera Cave Carnival

Postby MUD » May 3, 2011 7:42 pm

cavergirl wrote:a friday night Drum circle is planned for later that night!

:nuts: Here come the DEADheads! :laughing:
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