Why are so many cavers against recreational caving?

[David Grimes]

I just have to ask this question. Here on cavechat, where everyone has one thing in common, we enjoy caving, why are there so many cavers against caving? This sounds like an odd question but it is very serious. I have noticed so many cavers arguing with the other cavers about the USFWS cave closures. My question is not whether or not humans can spread WNS but simply why do they feel the need to argue every point made by cavers who are trying to get our caves re-opened? How many of the people on this forum who believe the caves should be closed are still participating in some form of caving? I guarantee every single "real" caver here has continued to cave in some form since the closures, so why try so hard to discredit the people who are trying to get your caves back open. I realize the old worn out argument keeps getting thrown around about there being no evidence to prove human transport is possible, but it is a true argument and is one of the few arguments we can make against such an influential opponent (USFWS). The real issue is that the USFWS and many other organizations continue to use the human vector as a scapegoat to raise more funds while contributing very little to the research for a cure. I also realize that many cavers have not yet been affected by WNS and therefore they do not care about our argument, all I can say to them is just wait your caves will be closed very soon.

I did not post this in the WNS page intentionally since it does not really pertain to WNS or WNS research but rather cave access.

[Chads93GT]

I think its an eliteist issue. Everyone caves recreationally, I don't care who you are. Unless you are someone who hates caving, but gets paid to do it. For everyone else, they do it because they love it and its fun. AFterall, if its not fun, you wont be doing it. Wether its doing cave surveying or other scientific reasons, or just going into caves just to see what there is, its all recreation as far as im concerned.

good question.

[jaa45993]

Wether its doing cave surveying or other scientific reasons, or just going into caves just to see what there is, its all recreation as far as im concerned.

I disagree. While I enjoy survey trips and recreational trips, I do not think they are the same thing. This does not mean you cannot have fun on a survey trip. It means the goals of the trips are different.

[tncaver]

Wether its doing cave surveying or other scientific reasons, or just going into caves just to see what there is, its all recreation as far as im concerned.

I disagree. While I enjoy survey trips and recreational trips, I do not think they are the same thing. This does not mean you cannot have fun on a survey trip. It means the goals of the trips are different.

It's still caving.

[junkman]

I enjoy both recreational and project caving.
They are both different and fun.
What I enjoy most is being underground with a group of like minded individuals.

[Chads93GT]

Wether its doing cave surveying or other scientific reasons, or just going into caves just to see what there is, its all recreation as far as im concerned.

I disagree. While I enjoy survey trips and recreational trips, I do not think they are the same thing. This does not mean you cannot have fun on a survey trip. It means the goals of the trips are different.

I agree. But when I go surveying every weekend, I do it because its fun. IE recreation. Recreation a pastime, diversion, exercise, or other resource affording relaxation and enjoyment. per websters. That being said........

when caving is no longer fun, i will no longer do it. Doesn't matter if im surveying, or just going on a cave trip to go on a cave trip, its all recreation, regardless of the actual goals. The main goal every time I go underground is to have fun.................... and not get killed.

[Dwight Livingston]

David

I have argued against many points raised here on the forum. Your post seems to imply that having done that, I am somehow against caving. I don't think that's fair.

. . . no evidence to prove human transport is possible, but it is a true argument and is one of the few arguments we can make against such an influential opponent (USFWS).

I think that, for one, anyone outside the caving community can easily see that the argument is self-serving and not to the point. It is unconvincing and may even tend to make cavers appear unreliable, or at least that is my concern.

For another, to maintain that caver transmission is not possible until proven possible discourages other cavers from taking measures to prevent the spread of WNS. I cave, and I take various precautions against spreading WNS. Even though I will be unsurprised if the measures have no effect on the course of WNS, I believe they are appropriate.

That is how I feel. Please do not characterize me as anti-caving.

Dwight

[LukeM]

I haven't seen many of the 'stop all caving' folks here on the forums. Are there that many? I've seen a lot of people who are reactionary (myself included) when they see comments that suggest humans can in no way spread WNS, or that the risk is small enough to be ignored. I think this is the root of most opposition on these forums. What happens when the party line for our community is simply "NO EVIDENCE, NO EVIDENCE" and then tomorrow some conclusive evidence of human transmission is found somewhere? We'll be left looking like idiots with our pants around our ankles and will have no place left in the public discourse on WNS, that's what. Our line has to be "More research, regardless of what the findings may be." and "close caves only when it presents a reasonable chance of helping". I think this is the kind of level headed speak that gives you the moral high ground when relating to the outside world (and does e.g., NSS statement), and would prevent a lot of quarrels within our community.

I don't think I'm too far off when I say that the number of people on Cavechat who's beliefs actually fall in line with all the the USFWS recommends (close all the caves) is somewhere between 0 and 2. Also keep in mind that there's only like 10 people actually regularly engaging in this discussion here. Getting too caught up in this is pointless. Who knows what the overall community consensus would be?

Yes, we're all still caving (I think). Some of us are staying in our region, decontaminating where appropriate, and generally exercising caution. Others are probably doing whatever they please because the whole WNS thing is just a big government conspiracy to close the caves and being cautious is admitting that cavers are the problem.

I also realize that many cavers have not yet been affected by WNS and therefore they do not care about our argument, all I can say to them is just wait your caves will be closed very soon.

Still caving away up here! I hear there's some sort of big convention happening in Vermont soon. ;) Must be the south where all hell will break loose.

[LukeM]

Thanks Dwight for pretty much summing up my statements in far less words.

I wanted to add a quote by BrianC from the WNS forum that pretty much sums up what I think most of the non-meshing of ideas is sprouting from:

What we still need is for the science to be completed so once and for all we can get back caving.

'

This represents an overall attitude by some that WNS is a caving issue and not a conservation issue. Unless cavers can approach WNS like it's an issue of conservation, why would anyone want to listen to our opinions?

[Evan Gehring]

I also realize that many cavers have not yet been affected by WNS and therefore they do not care about our argument, all I can say to them is just wait your caves will be closed very soon.

I'm in Wyoming and many of my friends are in Montana and Colorado, we are very disturbed by WNS. I personally have been working with the BLM and Park Service in setting up Decon protocol and taking soil samples of every bat cave and checking the bats. We want to know the before WNS and the after WNS so to help in anyway possible. I know without a doubt that people in the Rocky Mountain Region are taking WNS very seriously. We are watching all of you to see how different states react to this problem, so cavers and anybody with a vested interest can make the correct choices. NEVER EVER THINK that people in the mountain west don't care about the wildlife. Wildlife from the smallest mouse to biggest bull moose defines and plays a huge role in the Rocky Mountains and the people that grow up in them.

There are more people watching how people are reacting, choices that are being made, and actions being created than you might think. If WNS heads this way we want to be ready.

Sorry about going off topic....

[batrotter]

Your post and question make no sense whatsoever. I have not seen any cavers on here being against recreational caving. Caving is recreation by defintion. Do you also ask why we breathe air?

[Batgirl]

This represents an overall attitude by some that WNS is a caving issue and not a conservation issue. Unless cavers can approach WNS like it's an issue of conservation, why would anyone want to listen to our opinions?

Exactly my point. I have actually been trying to rap my head around this for the last month. There is nothing wrong with recreational caving - it's what we do, but it's not all we do. What I really want to know is why some cavers seem to think that the NSS is a recreational caving club...ie an outdoor club? That is not what we are. We are first and foremost a highly intelligent organization made up of scientists, surveyors, managers and conservationists that are united to protect the Karst systems and all that inhabit it - recreational caving is a secondary bi-product of that function. Maybe we need to get our priorities straight.

While I somewhat understand the history and why so many cavers are adamantly opposed to closing caves (given the mess in the 80's), we should be putting conservation first. If we act like the knowledgeable professionals that we are, then people will be more apt to listen and respect our opinions and we wouldn't need Dad (aka USFWS) to step in and take care of business for us. They would instead be following our lead.

But let me be clear, I am not a supporter of closing caves unless its a hibernacula/maternity cave or has confirmed WNS. Closures should be on a case by case basis only.

[tncaver]

Your post and question make no sense whatsoever. I have not seen any cavers on here being against recreational caving. Caving is recreation by defintion. Do you also ask why we breathe air?

No, it is the USFWS that is against caving. They want to close ALL caves to everyone. BTW, anytime, anyone enters a cave whether it be to count bats,
study airflow, survey, have fun, or collect insect specimens, they are all CAVING. Recreation is only one form of caving. Entering caves
is caving. To say otherwise is like saying you aren't a driver unless you make your living driving a truck.

The NSS is not an outdoor club. It is first a science organization. However, caving has dramatically helped the science of speleology through
the many discoveries made by cavers. Caving and science go hand in hand.

[Doug McCarty]

...it is a true argument and is one of the few arguments we can make against such an influential opponent (USFWS).

Actually, it is not a true argument. Arguing that lack of proof proves there is no human transmission factor in spreading WNS is a logical fallacy called an argumentum ad ignorantiam. In statistics, that fallacy is expressed with the maxim: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Arguing that there is no proof of human transmission is scientifically and logically meaningless - and using that argument with people in the scientific community will accomplish nothing.

Saying that does not mean I am against caving. There are good arguments that can be used against the blanket closing of all caves, but a lack of evidence isn't one of them.

Doug Mc

[David Grimes]

I haven't seen many of the 'stop all caving' folks here on the forums. Are there that many? I've seen a lot of people who are reactionary (myself included) when they see comments that suggest humans can in no way spread WNS, or that the risk is small enough to be ignored. I think this is the root of most opposition on these forums. What happens when the party line for our community is simply "NO EVIDENCE, NO EVIDENCE" and then tomorrow some conclusive evidence of human transmission is found somewhere? We'll be left looking like idiots with our pants around our ankles and will have no place left in the public discourse on WNS, that's what. Our line has to be "More research, regardless of what the findings may be." and "close caves only when it presents a reasonable chance of helping". I think this is the kind of level headed speak that gives you the moral high ground when relating to the outside world (and does e.g., NSS statement), and would prevent a lot of quarrels within our community.

I don't think I'm too far off when I say that the number of people on Cavechat who's beliefs actually fall in line with all the the USFWS recommends (close all the caves) is somewhere between 0 and 2. Also keep in mind that there's only like 10 people actually regularly engaging in this discussion here. Getting too caught up in this is pointless. Who knows what the overall community consensus would be?

Yes, we're all still caving (I think). Some of us are staying in our region, decontaminating where appropriate, and generally exercising caution. Others are probably doing whatever they please because the whole WNS thing is just a big government conspiracy to close the caves and being cautious is admitting that cavers are the problem.

I also realize that many cavers have not yet been affected by WNS and therefore they do not care about our argument, all I can say to them is just wait your caves will be closed very soon.

Still caving away up here! I hear there's some sort of big convention happening in Vermont soon. ;) Must be the south where all hell will break loose.

I do realize there is not many people actually engaged in this topic here on cavechat and usually it is the same people back and forth. I also realize and believe that using the "no proof" argument is not the best route to take, but my question was still aimed at the people who continue to argue against anyone here who is fighting to get the caves re-opened, no matter what their argument is. Like I said before if you are a caver why attack everyone here who is suggesting we fight to get the caves re-opened. If you truly believe cavers are spreading WNS then you would not be caving now. I know there are a few exceptions, those being the few people who have limited their caving ventures to one cave system, but as for anyone else, whether you are in a WNS or not if you are still going to multiple caves (even in the same area) you risk contaminating a new cave with WNS.

As for my comment about people outside of the WNS affected areas not caring, I would like to point out that I did not say all people but the fact is there are people who have no concern for our argument since it currently does not affect them. Also Luke, I know people are still caving in WNS areas, we are still caving away here in Indiana but unfortunately only on private land. There are lots of areas where the state or federal agencies do not own many caves but here in Indiana that is not the case. The Indiana DNR controls many great caves that are all closed now, there are a few great caves on federal property here.

My question may be a little vague but it is still a valid one. I am not personally attacking anyone here for any reason so please try not to take my question so personally, after all its just a question.