Someone creating Cave murals...

[rowland7840]

I was flabergasted when I saw this post today... A non caver friend sent it to me...

http://freewillastrology.com/horoscopes/allsigns.html

Here is what it says for the PISCES Horoscope:

"I have a Piscean friend who does modern-day cave paintings. She hikes out to underground caverns and abandoned gold mines, where she creates murals on stony walls. Only a few friends know about her unusual hobby. She shows us photos of her work, but otherwise keeps it secret. She says it's a pleasurable spiritual practice to offer these beautiful mysteries as a gift to the earth, without any expectation of getting recognition or money. I don't normally recommend such behavior for Pisceans; in general, I believe you should err of the side of being somewhat self-promotional to compensate for your self-deprecating tendencies. But I do suggest that you try it in the coming weeks. I think you'll conjure up an epiphany or two if you offer life your favors without worrying about whether they'll be returned."

You can contact the author of this Horoscope by simply clicking on Email Rob at the bottom of the page.

[Phil Winkler]

Wackos. But, if there are gold mines there I doubt there are many limestone caves in walking distance. At least, I think that's right. So who cares if she paints old mine walls. Still, how about the Caves of Lascaux in France? Early cave vandals?

[rowland7840]

Fact is we don't know exactly where this person is doing this. Easy to dismiss but I sent them an email anyways to let them know that what their friend is doing is not right if in fact she is doing it in caves.

[davantalus]

So does anyone living north of San Francisco remember seeing any of these?

[NZcaver]

So who cares if she paints old mine walls.

I care. Abandoned mines are ecosystems too. And archaeological sites.

I wonder how this woman would feel if I engaged in a "pleasurable spiritual practice" by spraying graffiti on her driveway or the walls of her home?

[davantalus]

It's amazing how far people will walk to make their mark on something.
Here's a picture of Big Horn Mine stamp mill...

I always have trouble figuring out the line between relic and trash. I'll pick up beer cans and shotgun shells on hikes sometimes, but what about when they were left by the original miners?

[Cavemud]

So who cares if she paints old mine walls.

I care. Abandoned mines are ecosystems too. And archaeological sites.

I wonder how this woman would feel if I engaged in a "pleasurable spiritual practice" by spraying graffiti on her driveway or the walls of her home?

She just may invite ya in for dinner, a movie and.....

[plicpriest1]

It is amazing how these folks come up with this crap. If you believe this stuff... YOU HAVE LOST TOUCH WITH REALITY. I theorize these things came as the result of a pipe dream. At any rate every person to their own.

[LukeM]

Disclaimer: If this seems too off topic let me know and I'll start a thread for this subject.

This brings up some interesting ideas for me. We, as cavers, are constantly promoting caving ethics and environmentally friendly behavior...in relation to caves. We all agree that it is not a good thing at all to modify a cave environment. Of course we do, because they're in many ways delicate and rare. Yet, at the same time we constantly modify our above ground environment. We build, we excavate, we use chemicals, and so on. We made these mines by destroying part of the earth, probably utilizing some horribly environmentally unfriendly practices, yet 100 years later we defend their historical value and protect them. I guess I just find it interesting that something can go from awful (or at least questionable) to sacred simply by the passage of time. Or how we burn fossil fuels and build massive amounts of infrastructure and manufactured goods which in turn enables us to go to a cave and tiptoe around a formation. Are we in some way biased or slanted in our environmental ethics as cavers? I mean all of this simply to stimulate discussion as I struggle with these ideas on a daily basis.

[harrym]

Anyone here ever seen Mr. and Mrs. Knox in Knox Cave (NY)?

Anyone here ever see bolts or fixed ropes in caves?

Anyone here ever go diggin in a cave?

Spiritual freaks are not the only ones modifying caves to suit their purpose.

I not condoning the practice of painting murals in caves, in fact I don't approve at all. But if your slate is clean then you can throw stones....

[plicpriest1]

Anyone here ever seen Mr. and Mrs. Knox in Knox Cave (NY)?

Anyone here ever see bolts or fixed ropes in caves?

Anyone here ever go diggin in a cave?

Spiritual freaks are not the only ones modifying caves to suit their purpose.

I not condoning the practice of painting murals in caves, in fact I don't approve at all. But if your slate is clean then you can throw stones....

Hmm I may be going out on a limb here, but i suspect that there is a difference between painting mona lisa's smile on a cave wall versus creating an anchor point so that we can safely explore a cave. Not sure what Mr. and Mrs. Knox have to do with this. Digging in a cave to find more passage isnt a sin (unless you are painting pictures on the wall with the sediments ). It reveals more passage.

Since my slate is clean (because setting bolts and digging in caves is not evil) I think it is fine to toss a few friendly stones. If anybody is affended because of a few jokes than I truly do appologize. I would hate to hurt the wickens, scientologists, satanists, astrologists, canableists, and the like's feelings.

[LukeM]

If you look at caving's past, cave ethics are certainly malleable. Sometimes a flowstone blockage or formation impedes exploration, sometimes it is 'modified'. I guess it depends on what is suspected to be on the other side. Sometimes, hardcore blasting to get into a cave seems too harsh and not worth it, but if it's a big system you're trying to get into and you're out of options well then go right ahead. Case in point: the blasted alternate entrance to the Flint Ridge system in the early days of exploration. This is a little more drastic than placing a bolt. Sometimes sediments are to be preserved for scientific study because they're 10,000 years old and glacially deposited. Other times, they make a great place for a sculpture garden. Who can say evil vs good or right versus wrong in these cases? Yet the art in question has already been indirectly implied as being 'evil' or just plain crazy.

It would seem that personal judgment and experience plays the largest role in determining what is right and wrong, not some strict and agreed upon code. Thoughts?

[harrym]

Hmm I may be going out on a limb here, but i suspect that there is a difference between painting mona lisa's smile on a cave wall versus creating an anchor point so that we can safely explore a cave. Not sure what Mr. and Mrs. Knox have to do with this. Digging in a cave to find more passage isnt a sin (unless you are painting pictures on the wall with the sediments ). It reveals more passage:

Your response proves my point.

Everyone thinks that their use of the cave is perfectly legitimate, while at the same time bemoaning other's use of the cave.

We think it's okay to place bolts "so that we can safely explore a cave" and we think it's okay to dig because "it reveals more passageway." But what about they guy who thinks that a cave is worthless unless we harvest natural resources? Or the woman who thinks it's a sacreligious to drill bolts in a cave, but it's perfectly reasonable to paint murals to "offer these beautiful mysteries as a gift to the earth."

Again, if your slate is clean....

[plicpriest1]

Hmm I may be going out on a limb here, but i suspect that there is a difference between painting mona lisa's smile on a cave wall versus creating an anchor point so that we can safely explore a cave. Not sure what Mr. and Mrs. Knox have to do with this. Digging in a cave to find more passage isnt a sin (unless you are painting pictures on the wall with the sediments ). It reveals more passage:

Your response proves my point.

Everyone thinks that their use of the cave is perfectly legitimate, while at the same time bemoaning other's use of the cave.

We think it's okay to place bolts "so that we can safely explore a cave" and we think it's okay to dig because "it reveals more passageway." But what about they guy who thinks that a cave is worthless unless we harvest natural resources? Or the woman who thinks it's a sacreligious to drill bolts in a cave, but it's perfectly reasonable to paint murals to "offer these beautiful mysteries as a gift to the earth."

Again, if your slate is clean....

Sure everybody thinks that their cave use is legitimate, though others may figure that digging is evil. I got that. So in this case their should be moderators... somebody who can give a little guidence. In this case I believe that would be the cave owners (because if they find some activity evil, than it is). In some circumstances it would be a board concerning certain caves. In these cases folks that know a lot more about the caves and the geology of the area, they probably have the best guidence. Since I have always acted in respect to what the owners and boards want, with no violations than I guess my slate is clean .

One more thought on this. The cavers as a whole (or at least the ones that I have worked with) believe in keeping a cave as natural as posible. Since the folks dont want to see formations damaged, or ruined we have something called the FCRPA. If somebody chose to spray paint the walls of a cave (in an effort to please the cave gods, or whomelse they choose), and they are caught than they will have to deal with the law. Remember that if anybody creates a cave wall mural for any reason on state or federal property, they are in trouble. And of course if they do it on private land than whatever the owner wants.

Still yet I have examined, re examined, and did all that again... My slate is clean. If anybody disagrees than I really dont care too much because Im responsible for my own slate, not anybody else.

[LukeM]

If anybody disagrees than I really dont care too much because Im responsible for my own slate, not anybody else.

Since I have always acted in respect to what the owners and boards want, with no violations than I guess my slate is clean .

Those two statements seem to go against one another. Do you abide by your own personal ethics or those of others, such as the government, land-owners and other cavers? If those making the rules said it was ok to paint murals in caves, would that un-'evil' it?