Property laws

[barcelonacvr]

I may be hoping for a lot here but maybe someone here can help.I am looking for examples of CANADIAN law in regards to whether private property extends underground to a cave.We have discovered a nice new karst area with a cave pushing over 1.9km now.We originally had permission but things have started to go downhill in this regards by no fault of ours.We had great landowner relations but a relative of his had shared the tinfoil hat of speculation and he is having second thoughts.

We are very worried as we have tons of cave to survey still and it would be a shame to not finish the map at the very least.We can access the cave thru a river bed that is classified as a navigable waterway and this precedence for access has been set in our courts.The grey area is whether you are trespassing when "under " the property as mineral rights here I believe are not usually owned by an individual unless it is a mine.

If no one knows any examples applying to this where might I attempt to find out? With natural resource ministries?

A second question for those much more experienced at negotiating landowner access.I have found another big karst area that was unknown in my area.I have spent months getting access to over 35 properties and I have been successful to the most part.I originally had access to search on one property and I found 2 big sinking rivers,when I went back to the owners and told them of my find and express an interest to dig some small amounts of debris out I was denied.I have had good repoir with these people but no matter how much information and friendly help from other locals they just do not want me to remove the debris(3 rolls of fencing and I am in virgin cave)I have not badgered them as it has been over a bit of time but this is so frustrating.Any ideas?

Thanks for any help people can provide

safe caving

Doug

[ian mckenzie]

In Canada, land ownership and mineral rights both fall under provincial jurisdiction rather than federal, so each province will have its own laws governing them. Most people think that mineral rights are subsurface, but mineral rights can be surface or subsurface, whereas gravel, which is generally subsurface, is owned by the landowner not the mineral rights holder. So I suspect the underground cave is owned by the landowner, not the mineral rights holder. As to who to ask for a definitive answer, you could check with your local land registry office. Here in Alberta we have a Surface Rights Board because of oil and gas, I don't know if Ontario has a similar office.

But even the owners of mineral rights must negotiate surface access from the landowner. In your case, once the owner gives you permission his liability is elevated. I'd skirt the issue of liability (hope it doesn't come up), and offer the owner a copy of the survey, photos and any other information on your discoveries in exchange for access permission. And agree to comply with the owner's guidelines on where to park, closing of gates, what time of day you may or may not visit, not kicking his dog etc.

[CKB69]

Thats a tough one!
I have no idea how the liability laws are in Canada,or,your province,so I don't know if a liability waiver is even an option for you.

FWIW,if you can access another entrance via "public" land,it would be very difficult for the owner of the land above to prove that people may be trespassing below. Even if the owner goes so far as to get a court injunction prohibiting this,it is still extremely difficult to enforce.
If it goes this far,without actually tresspassing on the surface,there may be some backlash with other local landowners. It may not be very severe,though,because if they are this anal,more than likely thier nieghbors don't like them,either!

I follow the landowners wishes. If they say no,despite my best efforts,I leave them,and ,thier property alone.
I have many great leads with hostile owners. I have many more great leads with friendly landowners,and,I concentrate on these.
In the meantime,the hostiles may sell,or,change thier minds. 8)

Despite the temptation to do a "Rambo",it is always better to wait for agreeable owners. Getting caught tresspassing is never a good situation.
You might have better luck using a different angle,or,having someone else ask. Someone with a different approach could get permission.

hth

[barcelonacvr]

Thanks Ian.. as usual you have great info!!I will check into the registry office angle.people here were even unsure as to how to approach finding the info.We have given the landowner lots of great photo's ,cleaned up some property and fixed some fencing,we also have told them we will provide a great map for them .Everything was fine until the owner had visions of litigation put in his head by the relations.We have club liabilty but concerns are still present unfortunately,I guess we will just keep on in an honorable manner and hope for the best.As you know new caves here are like finding the shroud of turin LOL

[barcelonacvr]

"I follow the landowners wishes. If they say no,despite my best efforts,I leave them,and ,thier property alone.
I have many great leads with hostile owners. I have many more great leads with friendly landowners,and,I concentrate on these.
In the meantime,the hostiles may sell,or,change thier minds.

Despite the temptation to do a "Rambo",it is always better to wait for agreeable owners. Getting caught tresspassing is never a good situation.
You might have better luck using a different angle,or,having someone else ask. Someone with a different approach could get permission. "





I guess sticking to the high road as we have is the only way.I may try the other person approaching method but that will be like giving up my baby.Ultimately if we can get in to the spots that is what matters most above protecting the karst.At a minimum at least new karst has been found before it was developed like a similar area here

Thanks for the input

[barcelonacvr]

*update* After much hard work I negotiated access !!!We start digging/surveying 4 virgin caves tommorrow I presented enough information to the landowner to make him realise we had honest motives and respect for his land.Going the proper route may take time and effort but the payoff is immense sometimes.

[bigalpha]

Perhaps you could post some pictures of this system?

[barcelonacvr]

Perhaps you could post some pictures of this system?

I will post a website at another time with more photos.