Google Maps Question/Concern

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Re: Google Maps Question/Concern

Postby tncaver » Jun 23, 2016 9:53 am

Case in point. Camps Gulf Cave in Falls Creek Falls State Park, was in very good shape before the park took it over. Previously,
only a few locals and cavers visited the cave and the cave was in near pristine condition. After the park took over the cave, it
began shuttling people (mostly non cavers) to the cave in droves. It is unknown what if any kind of conservation lesson was
preached on those trips, but the cave has suffered a great amount of graffiti since the park took it over. Now there is a permit
system in place, but that basically amounts to doing nothing to prevent further harm, as obviously, vandals are going to visit
the cave without getting a permit. Had the park not shuttled large numbers of non trained non cavers to the cave, very few
people would likely know of it and therefore, the cave would most likely still be in excellent shape. The exact same thing is
happening now to nearby Lost Creek Cave. The park took it over, they are shuttling visitors to the cave by the van load
and the cave is now suffering a considerable amount of graffiti since. Yet, the state of TN continues buying up cave land
by the thousands of acres and shutting it off to conscientious, trained, cavers who did more to protect caves than the
state of TN does. To make matters worse, one of the primary caving areas called Big Bottom is now subject to a $15 a DAY
permit charge for vehicles traveling on the rough old road that has existed in the area for decades. It has nothing to do
with caving but everything to do with money and control. The public pays for the purchase of most of these lands but
most of it is closed off or a fee or permit required once the land is opened back up. Counties should oppose these purchases,
because once the state buys the land, the property taxes on the land cease to exist. The counties not only lose any say so in how
the land is managed but also the tax base those lands once provided. Most of the time, these lands are bought up and closed
off with no benefit to the citizen tax payers.
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Re: Google Maps Question/Concern

Postby GroundquestMSA » Jun 23, 2016 10:50 am

tncaver wrote:The exact same thing is happening now to nearby Lost Creek Cave. The park took it over, they are shuttling visitors to the cave by the van load and the cave is now suffering a considerable amount of graffiti since.

Lost Creek has been a trash hole for decades. It may well have gotten worse, I haven't seen it for four or five years, but one of my earliest caving memories is of my disgust with graffiti at Lost Creek about 23 years ago.

tncaver wrote:Yet, the state of TN continues buying up cave landby the thousands of acres and shutting it off to conscientious, trained, cavers who did more to protect caves than the state of TN does.

I understand your frustration with these developments, but I must ask: What did cavers ever do to protect these caves? The State, by making access more difficult, may be doing more to protect caves than cavers, in their selfish and ignorant sporting, ever did.
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Re: Google Maps Question/Concern

Postby tncaver » Jun 23, 2016 6:21 pm

Cavers kept the cave locations quiet and ONLY took other qualified cavers to those caves. The caves stayed pristine
until the state took them over and began shuttling anyone and everyone with a few bucks to the caves. The counties
lost their property tax base and have no say in what the state does with the land. I will say the state has protected
some of the caves, by not allowing ANYONE to go to them. It irks me that the state uses our tax money to buy up
thousands of acres of land and then blocks it all off so no one can use it for recreation. That is like taxation
without representation sort of.
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Re: Google Maps Question/Concern

Postby GroundquestMSA » Jun 23, 2016 9:05 pm

tncaver wrote:Cavers kept the cave locations quiet and ONLY took other qualified cavers to those caves.


Aha! And the thread circles back on itself. This is why there is reason for concern over the publication of an entire state's location database.
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