Caves exist independently of us until we agree

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Caves exist independently of us until we agree

Postby Moff » Jun 8, 2014 10:45 am

Hello, NSS!
As a non-native speaker I'm seeking help with translation issue.
"Caves exist independently of us until we agree" - does that sound linguistically correct and translates the meaning? Is there any better way to say that?
Would like to print this motto on expedition shirts.
Thanks!
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Re: Caves exist independently of us until we agree

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Jun 8, 2014 11:33 am

I like the motto, but I'm not sure yet if it is saying what you want it to. I like it because it sounds obscure and thought-provoking.

From my perspective, it sounds like you are saying that there is some disagreement between us. Because of that, the two of us are unable to effectively interact with caves in a meaningful way. This causes caves to become distant, existing independent of us instead of being an integral part of us. This feeling of separation between the two of us and caves will go away once you and I can come to an agreement.

Is that even close to what you had in mind?

Give us an example of the feeling that you are trying to convey, or the situation that you are trying to describe, and then we can help with the English.
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Re: Caves exist independently of us until we agree

Postby Moff » Jun 8, 2014 2:21 pm

Anonymous_Coward wrote:I like the motto, but I'm not sure yet if it is saying what you want it to. I like it because it sounds obscure and thought-provoking.

From my perspective, it sounds like you are saying that there is some disagreement between us. Because of that, the two of us are unable to effectively interact with caves in a meaningful way. This causes caves to become distant, existing independent of us instead of being an integral part of us. This feeling of separation between the two of us and caves will go away once you and I can come to an agreement.

Is that even close to what you had in mind?

Give us an example of the feeling that you are trying to convey, or the situation that you are trying to describe, and then we can help with the English.

Thanks for reply, I knew there's something I was missing :sad:
The motto is in fact thought-provoking and obscure and one may find different meanings.

The idea is following: Caves exist independently of us (human beeings) until we (me, you, anyone) agree with this statement (that caves exist independently of us). When we no longer think that caves exist independently of us, then we will be able to interact with them, create them in our minds and in reality, influence them.
Try putting word 'gravity' instead of 'caves'. Gravity exist independently of us until we agree with that.
Gravity exists whether or not we know about its existence, whether or not we want it in our lives. When we start questioning such statement then we can start alternating gravity, play with it, use it for our needs.

Hope I made it a bit more clear.
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Re: Caves exist independently of us until we agree

Postby Bob Thrun » Jun 8, 2014 2:43 pm

I do not understand. With the exception of quarrying operations, caves existed independently of us before we agreed and they will exist independently of us after we agree. And it is not explained what we are agreeing upon.
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Re: Caves exist independently of us until we agree

Postby batrotter » Jun 8, 2014 6:52 pm

"As a non-native speaker I'm seeking help with translation issue."


I think you have a translation issue. In my work as a drafter, we deal with all different countries and languages. For example, we start with a Japanese drawing, which the Japanese themselves then tried to convert over to American English. Then these drawings go to a manufacturer in India which try to convert even further into English. The result is a bastardization of the English language of the likes which you have never seen. The Indians swear they know what it means, the Japanese disavow it, and the Americans don't have a clue due to the fact that they have been dumbed down for half a century or more.
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Re: Caves exist independently of us until we agree

Postby jderoo » Jun 8, 2014 9:42 pm

Moff wrote:The idea is following: Caves exist independently of us (human beeings) until we (me, you, anyone) agree with this statement (that caves exist independently of us). When we no longer think that caves exist independently of us, then we will be able to interact with them, create them in our minds and in reality, influence them.


I think the confusion might be around the word "until". Your first sentence above says to me that up until the time we agree that caves exist independently of us, they *do* exist independently of us. The implication is that after we agree they are independent, then they are no longer independent. However, the second sentence above makes the jump "When we *no longer* think that caves exist independently..." but nothing in the first sentence leads to us no longer thinking the caves are independent - in fact, the first sentence leads to the opposite conclusion.

I'm still not quite sure the point you are trying to get across. Is it something more like: "Caves exist independently of us until we agree they don't"?

JD
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Re: Caves exist independently of us until we agree

Postby Moff » Jun 9, 2014 1:38 am

jderoo wrote:
Moff wrote:The idea is following: Caves exist independently of us (human beeings) until we (me, you, anyone) agree with this statement (that caves exist independently of us). When we no longer think that caves exist independently of us, then we will be able to interact with them, create them in our minds and in reality, influence them.


I think the confusion might be around the word "until". Your first sentence above says to me that up until the time we agree that caves exist independently of us, they *do* exist independently of us. The implication is that after we agree they are independent, then they are no longer independent. However, the second sentence above makes the jump "When we *no longer* think that caves exist independently..." but nothing in the first sentence leads to us no longer thinking the caves are independent - in fact, the first sentence leads to the opposite conclusion.

I'm still not quite sure the point you are trying to get across. Is it something more like: "Caves exist independently of us until we agree they don't"?

JD

The word 'until' is quite tricky. Let's rephrase the saying: Caves exist independently of us as long as we believe so. The moment we start questioning thier status quo - that's when the 'magic' happens. "Caves exist independently of us until we agree they don't" - I think that's very close to the point.

Is there any other simple way to say that, maybe omitting "don't"s?
"Caves exist independently of us up until we agree with that"?
"Caves exist independently of us up until we doubt that"?
"Caves exist independently of us till we question it"?
"Caves exist independently of us until we oppugn\impugn"?
"Caves exist independently of us when we don't question the latter"
"Caves exist independently of us till we impugn it"?

The thing is that native speaker's ear can catch the slightest incorrectness while other's can't.
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Re: Caves exist independently of us until we agree

Postby graveleye » Jun 9, 2014 7:32 am

Cave exist independently, so lets get together and go caving.
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Re: Caves exist independently of us until we agree

Postby Squirrel Girl » Jun 9, 2014 11:30 am

Moff wrote:The word 'until' is quite tricky. Let's rephrase the saying: Caves exist independently of us as long as we believe so. The moment we start questioning thier status quo - that's when the 'magic' happens. "Caves exist independently of us until we agree they don't" - I think that's very close to the point.


I'm with Bob Thrun on this. Why do they not exist independently after we agree or disagree? Their existence is not relevant to what we think. We could fill them in or something and then they wouldn't exist. But they exist irrespective of us.
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Re: Caves exist independently of us until we agree

Postby Moff » Jun 9, 2014 10:13 pm

Squirrel Girl wrote:
Moff wrote:The word 'until' is quite tricky. Let's rephrase the saying: Caves exist independently of us as long as we believe so. The moment we start questioning thier status quo - that's when the 'magic' happens. "Caves exist independently of us until we agree they don't" - I think that's very close to the point.


I'm with Bob Thrun on this. Why do they not exist independently after we agree or disagree? Their existence is not relevant to what we think. We could fill them in or something and then they wouldn't exist. But they exist irrespective of us.

Yes, you have a point. And everyone of us might have a different vision. But apart of all discussion - what will will be the best way to say?
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Re: Caves exist independently of us until we agree

Postby Moff » Jun 11, 2014 2:33 am

And by the way I want to announce the upcoming July 2014 expedition (the one we're doing the t-shirts with motto to):

Ukrainian Speleological Association (UkrSA) together with Turkish cavers invite you to become a member of our team and explore caves in Aladaglar mountain range (Eastern Taurus, Turkey) during expedition in July 2014.
Our expedition is a project of UkrSA’s “Call of Abyss” campaign. We plan to continue the exploration of remote high altitude mountain range started by Ukrainian cavers in 2001.
The research is conducted with help of Turkish Geological Service (MTA).
Over 200 caves at heights of 2000-3500 meters have been found since 2001. Depeest one – Kuzgun – reached depth of 1400 meters!
Karst water discharge occurs at an altitude of 600 meters which gives 2000+ meters of denivelation potential.

Image

Exedition goals
· finding the way through Kuzgun cave bottom boulder choke
· widening narrow passages and further exploration of Gyulchitay and Sokol-mara caves
· searching and keeping track of new caves in the region

Dates (subject to change): July, 2-4 to July, 26-28 (to be confirmed after we know when everyone arrives in Turkey)

Discussion board
In Russian: http://www.speleoukraine.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=306
Google translated to English: http://bit.ly/1pi9LI8

Links
Call of the Abyss http://speleoukraine.org/index.php/en/activity/projects/call-of-the-abbys
2013 expedition results http://speleoukraine.org/index.php/ru/dejatelnost/proekty-usa/zov-bezdny/495-peshchera-kuzgun-massiv-aladaglar-vostochnyj-tavr-turtsiya-2013
Photos http://speleoukraine.org/index.php/ru/dejatelnost/proekty-usa/zov-bezdny/507-zov-bezdny-aladaglar-2013-fotootchet

Expedition leader, Gennady Samokhin
facebook.com/gennadiy.samokhin.3
gen-samokhin@yandex.ru
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