Vandalism in Ellisons

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Vandalism in Ellisons

Postby Elliott-Hellmann » Apr 13, 2014 8:06 pm

Image

Image

Please take a moment and view the attached images. These are from the a recent NSS news publication.

I want to first thanks the NSS and the caving community in general for being so vigilant about protecting this cave. I also want to apologize as it was my trip that this took place on.

This entire thing is a little blown out of proportion. There are a couple of inaccuracies in the recent news letter. The "vandalism" is a chalk mark name (that could be easily wiped off) in the fault room, not the north pole. The report mentions a photo of the "perpretrator" potentially touching a gypsum formation near the South Pole. His finger is a little too close for comfort but nothing was touched. I actually wrote a trip report that was published in the Chattanooga Grotto issue of TAGline last year and this is one of the photos published in that report. Why would the editor allow this to be published if it was a crime or offensive?

Here is the story of what happened for those who are concerned. Myself, "the perpetrator", and his brother did a through trip of Ellisons May of last year (2013). On this trip we actually caved past incredible pit all the way to the west end of the cave system on the breakdown slopes in the Hall for the giants. On the way back through, we decided to explore the middle levels instead of taking the standard route through the upper level. We saw the ledge room and caved through some twisty and elusive passages before finding ourselves in the bottom of the "fault" in the fault room. There is an easy (class 4) climb up that puts you back in the fault room on the standard crossover route. "The Perpetrator" was the first to climb up. His brother followed and I was last. During the time he was waiting for us to climb up, he picked of a rock and scratched his name "" 2013 on a rock right next to the fault. I was not aware that this happened. I first learned of it on a crossover trip with cavers who were much more experienced then me. They noticed it and informed me that this is taboo in contemporary caving circles. I looked at it and it was a harmless chalk mark. It is not chiseled.

A month before this trip, I explored the historic entrance and came across some names from the 1800s carved into the wall. I took pictures and sent some of them to the "perpetrator". We both thought this was intriguing. This could be a factor influencing him to do what he did.

Once again I want to apologize for this. This is a case of inexperienced cavers acting out of ignorance. There was no disrespect towards to cave as this recent publication in the NSS news suggests. In fact myself and the perpetrator are planning to go back and remove the mark as soon as our schedules allow.

The thing that bothers me is why did the caver who reported this not make an effort to remove the mark if they were so offended by it? Why did they not confront the "perpetrator" or myself directly? This case was built through my Facebook page. The state has already contacted the "perpetrator" and threatened him with a felony if the name does not get removed. The "other" vandalism in the case refers to chalk mark arrows in the slot canyon between broken dome and the stream junction. Originally, they were going to turn around at the north pole. I was very ambitions about reaching the known west end of the cave and they decided to stick with me. He put those arrows there so he would remember the way out in case we got separated. They are all chalk marks. 80% of them are now gone from cavers brushing up against them crawling through the slot canyon.
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Re: Vandalism in Ellisons

Postby GroundquestMSA » Apr 13, 2014 9:58 pm

Thanks very much for this background information. I read the article with interest last week when I got my copy. This case seemed to me to be most trivial when compared to the first example given; formation breaking and bat stomping. It seems that the fact that this was done in Ellison's made it worthy, in Mr. Atz's mind, of pursuing. I'm sure that the 2013 caver who scratched his name did it for the same basic reasons that the 1800s visitors did. Atz says that "it is discouraging that a person who possesses the skills to reach the North Pole... might vandalize..." I think that the fact that a person has such skills may make him more likely to advertise his accomplishment by leaving his mark, essentially saying, "Look what I can do."

In a couple of cases when I have found virgin passages or virgin caves, I have left my initials and the date at the "end" of the cave. Not in a large, gaudy, or destructive manner, but to lay claim to the original discovery. Is this vandalism? Possibly in the viewpoint of some. Is it juvenile? Probably so. But we explore for selfish reasons, and these indulgences should be expected. The Ellison's case, though, didn't involve passage that was newly discovered or scarcely traveled, so some outrage should have been expected.

While the reaction to this vandalism may have been extreme, I do believe that "vandals" like the one involved in this case are perhaps the only sort who will stop such behavior when confronted with disapproval or a potential penalty (though as Elliot says, a one on one discussion with the vandal would have been even more productive). The bat stompers and stal breakers and trash throwers and most of the spray painters will carry on destroying things, no matter what we do, perhaps even more zealously if confronted. Punishing them will feel good for us, and punished they should be, but will it change anything?
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Re: Vandalism in Ellisons

Postby DawgsgoCaving » Apr 13, 2014 10:29 pm

I don't think the point of doing it, on the general level you're talking about, will change anything immediately or completely for that matter, but it is important to take a firm place on the issue. I feel, given where they sit in the matter, the NSS has taken the best course of action.

If someone is ignorant enough to go into go into a cave, destroy its fragile environment, take stuff from that environment (A whole other level of selfishness) risk hurting his or her self, and influence their friends to do the same stupid s*it, which, is the exact opposite of what I am instructed to do, then I would venture to say educating that person on cave environments and how their actions cause harm is a waste of time.

Will filing charges and awarding fines stop cave vandalism? Probably not. But it is important in letting those reckless individuals know their behavior won't be overlooked just because it is underground.

Now, to be on topic, I do feel like you did get the short end of the stick, Elliott. Like Groundquest said, I bet the location made it more fitting (And likely to grab attention) to his article. I think the important thing is your willingness to be proactive about it and continue to discuss the issue with the caving community. In my opinion, your attitude and desire to help should not have been overlooked. For what it's worth, this probably would have been handled faster if the person would have reached out to you sooner. He may just have felt compelled to contact the authorities at the advice of his peers.
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Re: Vandalism in Ellisons

Postby DawgsgoCaving » Apr 13, 2014 10:37 pm

Elliott-Hellmann wrote:Image

Image
I actually wrote a trip report that was published in the Chattanooga Grotto issue of TAGline last year and this is one of the photos published in that report. Why would the editor allow this to be published if it was a crime or offensive?


Forgot to say you should follow up with them about this if you haven't already. Definitely an odd double-standard, for lack of a better word, going on there.
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Re: Vandalism in Ellisons

Postby Elliott-Hellmann » Apr 14, 2014 1:42 pm

DawgsgoCaving wrote:
Elliott-Hellmann wrote:Image

Image
I actually wrote a trip report that was published in the Chattanooga Grotto issue of TAGline last year and this is one of the photos published in that report. Why would the editor allow this to be published if it was a crime or offensive?


Forgot to say you should follow up with them about this if you haven't already. Definitely an odd double-standard, for lack of a better word, going on there.


I sent quite a few photos with the report and that one was selected over others. The feedback I received was all positive and encouraging. Once again I will admit that I and the person responsible are relatively new cavers and still have a lot to learn. Not just with the skills to safely negotiate a cave, but with the general expectations and etiquette of the community.
It's pretty clear that someone "had it out" for the "perpetrator". Though possibly not with malicious intent. It doesn't take much investigating to see that the "perpetrator" is an educated and somewhat affluent individual and it's possible someone recognized this and saw it as a case of "he should have known better". I will testify that one of the "perpetrators" best qualities is that he is a good listener and is not imperious at all.
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Re: Vandalism in Ellisons

Postby Lava » Apr 14, 2014 11:20 pm

Elliott-Hellmann wrote: I sent quite a few photos with the report and that one was selected over others. The feedback I received was all positive and encouraging. Once again I will admit that I and the person responsible are relatively new cavers and still have a lot to learn. Not just with the skills to safely negotiate a cave, but with the general expectations and etiquette of the community.


Kudos to you for openly communicating about this mistake. I'm glad to hear that the intent was not malicious.


It's pretty clear that someone "had it out" for the "perpetrator". Though possibly not with malicious intent. It doesn't take much investigating to see that the "perpetrator" is an educated and somewhat affluent individual and it's possible someone recognized this and saw it as a case of "he should have known better". I will testify that one of the "perpetrators" best qualities is that he is a good listener and is not imperious at all.


You are reaching here. Ellisons is one of the great caves of the US, with extremely fragile formations. You should not be surprised that the reaction to vandalism was swift. You better believe that a great many TAG cavers (and those from other states), having found the same name scratched on the wall and in the register (totally low-hanging fruit), would have reported this. Typically someone who would take the time to learn vertical techniques advanced enough to get to the bottom of the cave would have also absorbed the caving ethic by that point as well, so it was not at all unreasonable to assume that the perpetrator had ignored the conservation creed and acted maliciously. I've seen the perpetrator's Facebook page, and my impression was not one of an educated or affluent person, but of a careless thrill seeker. Coupled with the vandalism, the shoe seemed to fit and the prudent course of action was to contact the authorities.

But like I said, I am glad to hear the intent was not malicious and that you guys are going to remove the marks. I do think that intent should be carefully looked at in these cases, as sometimes the individual just hasn't been exposed to the big conservation picture or simply didn't think things through and we are better served by educating rather than punishing. Although some egregious cases, like the other incidents Aaron mentioned in the article, don't deserve leniency.
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Re: Vandalism in Ellisons

Postby Elliott-Hellmann » Apr 15, 2014 6:28 am

Lava wrote:
Elliott-Hellmann wrote: I sent quite a few photos with the report and that one was selected over others. The feedback I received was all positive and encouraging. Once again I will admit that I and the person responsible are relatively new cavers and still have a lot to learn. Not just with the skills to safely negotiate a cave, but with the general expectations and etiquette of the community.


Kudos to you for openly communicating about this mistake. I'm glad to hear that the intent was not malicious.


It's pretty clear that someone "had it out" for the "perpetrator". Though possibly not with malicious intent. It doesn't take much investigating to see that the "perpetrator" is an educated and somewhat affluent individual and it's possible someone recognized this and saw it as a case of "he should have known better". I will testify that one of the "perpetrators" best qualities is that he is a good listener and is not imperious at all.


Typically someone who would take the time to learn vertical techniques advanced enough to get to the bottom of the cave would have also absorbed the caving ethic by that point as well, so it was not at all unreasonable to assume that the perpetrator had ignored the conservation creed and acted maliciously. I've seen the perpetrator's Facebook page, and my impression was not one of an educated or affluent person, but of a careless thrill seeker. Coupled with the vandalism, the shoe seemed to fit and the prudent course of action was to contact the authorities.

I do think that intent should be carefully looked at in these cases, as sometimes the individual just hasn't been exposed to the big conservation picture or simply didn't think things through and we are better served by educating rather than punishing. Although some egregious cases, like the other incidents Aaron mentioned in the article, don't deserve leniency.


The perpetrator is one of the most cautious cavers I have met. You are also reaching here stereotyping him having not met or caved with him. He is about as extroverted as they get and that can give people the wrong impression (especially through his facebook page). Look at his linkedin if you want a more realistic impression of who he is. A very responsible individual with a lot to lose. He is engaged and just purchased a home and the call from the DNR shook him up badly. I get that same response about being a thrill seeker. The reality is there is nothing thrilling about vertical caving. It's about adventure, challenge, and exploration. To quote big wall rock climber Alex Honold "When you feel a thrill, it usually means something bad is happening".

I agree with and support the NSS stance on this issue. The officials and long time cavers who were upset and took action are people I admire. I know the group who went back and took the picture for evidence. They are friends and invited me on that trip!!!! I'm just a little peeved to learn that one of the primary motives for that trip was to gather evidence against the perpetrator and neither I or him was informed of it. Kind of feel like we've been bit by "snakes in the grass". I was free that weekend and choose to go to Sinking Cove with another group purely for recreation and leisure. I would have certainly choose Ellisons and removed the chalk mark name if I knew what I know now. Either way, I can assure you that the perpetrator will never scratch another name in a cave again so I can't deny that if anything, it was an effective course of action.
Last edited by Elliott-Hellmann on Apr 15, 2014 3:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Vandalism in Ellisons

Postby caver.adam » Apr 15, 2014 8:53 am

I think that the amount of damage, and the ability to repair damage are of prime importance. If the problem is chalk marks then the people that made the problem should be responsible for cleaning up or paying the cost of having it cleaned up. I don't see a need for the issue to go any farther.

As a community, we should explain why not to do things, and promote non-persistent bread crumbs such as flagging tape instead of arrows for explorers.

I would have a much different opinion if there were irreparable harm done.
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Re: Vandalism in Ellisons

Postby graveleye » Apr 15, 2014 1:34 pm

I don't know. I've been in one spectacular cave that they have put so much flagging in it almost counts as vandalism. It's ugly as sin.

Also, how many of you have seen survey stations smoked on the walls? I've seen a lot of them.

Thanks for the explanation and I feel bad for the situation you're in. I think that this is something that you can recover from, and if you feel the need to redeem yourself from the actions of your friend, then I'm sure that is possible.
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Re: Vandalism in Ellisons

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Apr 15, 2014 4:59 pm

Elliott-Hellmann wrote: The perpetrator is one of the most cautious cavers I have met.


Then you need to meet some more cavers. The really cautious ones don't carry chalk around in order to write their names on the wall. :big grin:

In all seriousness, this is a serious vandalism incident because of where it is located. This is hallowed ground for a lot of people and this is exactly the result you can expect. It is disconcerting to cavers that someone could make it through all the steps of learning to cave vertically on the level of Ellisons, without getting the same kind of education in conservation along the way. It concerns me that such a path to vertical caving even exists.

That said, everyone makes mistakes and the caving community is probably the most tolerant bunch I have ever been associated with. I have seen a lot worse than chalk marks be forgiven. You can certainly recover from this, and it sounds like you are well on your way.

The fact that you are so torn up about this shows me that you are one of the good guys. Now go clean up that chalk!
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Re: Vandalism in Ellisons

Postby gindling » Apr 15, 2014 5:16 pm

Would you be talking about Jewel Cave Graveleye? We volunteered and ended up laying double flagging all the way to Hell's Half Acre, somewhere around twelve rolls! Never could understand why there needed to be that MUCH flagging, and I'm sure the flagging we put in the snow blower tube is long gone, we had to tie it to rocks to keep it from being blown away, and it would now be just a scrap of trash somewhere on the trail.
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Re: Vandalism in Ellisons

Postby graveleye » Apr 15, 2014 6:01 pm

No I've never been to Jewel Cave although I would like to. I'm not going to name the cave I'm talking about because I know it was all done with the best intentions and the cavers who look after it are good people. I just felt it was overkill and looked really bad. A little here and there is fine but at a point the flagging tape just looks like leftover New Years Eve trash.

Anyway, I was re-reading my post just now and I don't want it to be taken wrong. What I was getting at is that there is probably not a caver around who can honestly say that they have not committed some offense somewhere along the way... sometimes not even in the cave. I've seen first class, long time, conscientious cavers do things, maybe even break something and not even know that they did it. I hope I have not too! Sure, scratching your name on the wall should be something anyone should know about, but it's not always something that people automatically know if they aren't told beforehand. They get in a cave and they already see 100 years of signatures and etchings and it seems ok for them to add their own, almost absentmindedly. I've seen it happen (caught them before they could do it). Nowadays if I am taking a rookie or an unknown into a cave I lay it out beforehand - even the stupid stuff that anyone should know. I'm sure on a through trip to Ellison's that minor details like "don't scratch your name on a rock" might be overlooked.

I have not seen the damage, and only know what I have read here and in the NSS News, but looking at this judiciously, I feel like this is a rectifiable and forgivable situation. Elliot seems pretty mortified that this has become an issue and I get the feeling that his friend is too. I don't know if there is anything that can be done to clean up or repair what happened, but I would give them the opportunity to do so. It's not like they were killing bats and spray painting swastikas on the wall. Then again, I haven't actually seen it, so I might be off base.

PS - there is a Confederate general who scratched his name in a cave wall somewhere back in the Civil War (civilized vandalism I suppose). It was kind of faint and hard to see, so someone (probably a caver who knew what they were looking at) came along and outlined it with chalk so it could be more easily seen!!! Well intentioned I'm sure, but still vandalism plain and simple.

Bottom line is like my dad taught me: "Fools names and monkey faces always seen in public places". Lesson learned.
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Re: Vandalism in Ellisons

Postby GroundquestMSA » Apr 15, 2014 6:41 pm

Anonymous_Coward wrote:It is disconcerting to cavers that someone could make it through all the steps of learning to cave vertically on the level of Ellisons, without getting the same kind of education in conservation along the way. It concerns me that such a path to vertical caving even exists.


This is an interesting comment. There are many ways to learn vertical ropework, and while they may not all be approved by the majority of cavers, I would guess that there are many ways to bottom Ellison's. I don't think there's any such thing as getting an unbiased education in conservation. Conservation is partly intuitive and partly societal. It obviously follows that there will be some people who can explore deep caves without sharing the "cavers" view of conservation. Viewing this fact in a strictly negative way would be selfish. Understand that I'm not excusing the actions that triggered this investigation, or criticizing anyone for being upset. I just hope that we can keep cool and consider the background and intentions of others, especially in areas when there are no universally accepted rules.
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Re: Vandalism in Ellisons

Postby gindling » Apr 15, 2014 8:31 pm

Topic side derailment ahead.

Having gone to craft school and getting a minor in art history, my favorite art and a subject of a few of my college reports as well as many hours of fruitless reproductions, are the ancient cave drawings from America through Europe and to Australia. Just as a hypothetical, if someone was to do a modern rendition, I guess it wouldn't be bisons and lions and mammoths, but would it be considered vandalism? This is all a hypothetical, I am in no way as cool and confident as those paleolithic ancestors. 21st century modern art ain't got nothing on them.
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Re: Vandalism in Ellisons

Postby Extremeophile » Apr 15, 2014 9:01 pm

GroundquestMSA wrote:
Anonymous_Coward wrote:It is disconcerting to cavers that someone could make it through all the steps of learning to cave vertically on the level of Ellisons, without getting the same kind of education in conservation along the way. It concerns me that such a path to vertical caving even exists.


This is an interesting comment. There are many ways to learn vertical ropework, and while they may not all be approved by the majority of cavers, I would guess that there are many ways to bottom Ellison's. I don't think there's any such thing as getting an unbiased education in conservation. Conservation is partly intuitive and partly societal. It obviously follows that there will be some people who can explore deep caves without sharing the "cavers" view of conservation. Viewing this fact in a strictly negative way would be selfish. Understand that I'm not excusing the actions that triggered this investigation, or criticizing anyone for being upset. I just hope that we can keep cool and consider the background and intentions of others, especially in areas when there are no universally accepted rules.

There may be many ways to learn vertical caving skills and get to the bottom of Ellisons, but most of these paths involve significant interaction with far more experienced cavers. This may be through literature, online forums, grottos, unaffiliated cavers, etc. Whatever the path there's generally a hierarchy where step #1 is you learn the importance of cave conservation. The combined knowledge of learning about a cave's location, traveling underground, using ropes to descend and ascend, and learning the routes through a complex cave, all come much, much later. The point Andy and Aaron have made is that it's hard to imagine how someone gets to step #179 without learning step #1. Is this the first outdoor activity this person has ever been involved with, because most outdoor communities have a similar conservation ethic, and graffiti would be considered vandalism (quotes not needed) by any of them. I'm also glad to hear the intent wasn't malicious, but caves such as Ellisons can't afford to be used as a learning opportunity for every new caver. I'm glad there's been some discussion around this incident because I think it will help remind all experienced cavers to not take the conservation ethic for granted with new cavers. I expect some long-term good will come from this.
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