Thoughts on this

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Thoughts on this

Postby barcelonacvr » May 1, 2006 7:43 am

I was doing my normal morning url collecting from the many blogs/linkdumps etc I visit and I ran across this.

Maybe it is the way the trip was described or what I percieve as disregarding the basic safety mantras we "all" follow.I found this article disturbing to say the least,is this unwarranted?

http://www.betterthanyourboyfriend.com/ ... s-cave.htm
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Postby Dustin » May 1, 2006 8:23 am

Within a half an hour, Hayden had had enough. He wasn’t a typical participant in our crazy ideas, and he hadn’t gotten enough sleep the night before. Now determined to make it to the end, we left a water bottle for him and continued on.


What??? Leave someone behind!?! Holy :bleep: ! :shock:

In regards to the whole article...

:yikes: I’m unsure of what else to say, but just :eek: !
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Postby Phil Winkler » May 1, 2006 8:42 am

I think that was an extremely well written story and completely believable. I've heard tales of Airman's Cave before, too, and never had a desire to visit it.
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Postby Squirrel Girl » May 1, 2006 9:08 am

This past weekend I went to VAR. I went on a led trip with some friends, including Richard Richardson, an old buddy of mine from NC. He and I went on another led VAR trip a couple years ago (or so). The leaders left us behind at the parking area to the cave. When we went in by ourselves to this maze cave, we went in at the same time as some Boy Scout Explorers.

There was a pack of about 10 of them. No one, including the leader, had been to the cave before. Just one girl who was an attendee. After a few hundred yards, one boy said, "My foot hurts. I think it's time I leave the cave." The leader said, "Take this whistle, and we'll keep going in."

Richard and I are like, "WHAT!!!!!" So we escorted the boy out.

Talk about a STUPID leader.
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Postby Teresa » May 1, 2006 9:19 am

Dustin wrote:
Within a half an hour, Hayden had had enough. He wasn’t a typical participant in our crazy ideas, and he hadn’t gotten enough sleep the night before. Now determined to make it to the end, we left a water bottle for him and continued on.


What??? Leave someone behind!?! Holy :bleep: ! :shock:


Not sure why Dustin is freaked about this. I've voluntarily stayed behind in a number of one-entrance one-passage caves. Hey, they gotta pick you up on the way out, anyway... Better that he stayed and rested, than was pushed and turned into a cave rescue.
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Postby erebus » May 1, 2006 11:30 am

I didn't read through to the end, but it's clear that Greg, the only experienced caver and the putative leader, was taking ridiculous risks with those kids. One light each? No helmets? What was Greg going to do when one of those kids stood up too fast and concussed himself on a low ceiling - drag him out, while the author's "fancy flashlight" died along with the rest?

It's beyond disturbing - somebody should sit that "teacher" down and explain just why he should not have participated in and encouraged that trip.
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Postby Roppelcaver » May 1, 2006 11:53 am

This is a situation where mentoring is usually the best approach. These types of excursions happen all the time, and this cave probably has more than its share, being close to Austin. It is only the fact that an interesting article was written makes it stand out. This is exactly the type of folks that we need to work with to bring them into the NSS as responsible cavers. For folks such as this, taking them caving and demonstrating good techniques is very effective. They certainly would not enjoy hearing only about what they do wrong.
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Postby erebus » May 1, 2006 12:57 pm

To clarify, I'm not advocating criticism of the author or his buddies. Greg the teacher though, is clearly more aware of what equipment is required. Having that awareness, and still leading such a woefully unprepared group into a difficult cave is irresponsible.
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Postby Squirrel Girl » May 1, 2006 1:06 pm

Roppelcaver wrote: This is exactly the type of folks that we need to work with to bring them into the NSS as responsible cavers. For folks such as this, taking them caving and demonstrating good techniques is very effective. They certainly would not enjoy hearing only about what they do wrong.

I agree completely with this. I think erebus and the others may not disagree. While I very much agree that we should frown on unsafe caving techniques, I think we need to be pro-active as well. Lord knows I don't do it as much as I should.
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Postby hewhocaves » May 1, 2006 3:50 pm

I just read through the whole thing and... wow... that story was hilarous.

Now before you decide to hang me in effigy, let me explain. (explain first, then hang). I'm not talking shoot-through-the nose hilarious, more black-satire funny. It's like one of those jokes where your jaw just drops because your brain is stuck in 'process' mode.

But you can look at this trip lightly because of the following reasons: One, no one was injured or killed. Two: there is almost a systematic abhorrence of any kind of safety or common sense. Its the sort of event textbooks are written for. Three: The author, at least, seems to have learned from his experience. Perhaps the lesson was to never go caving again, but at least he didn't think he was the coolest person on the planet for doing it.

Two colloraries need to follow the above reasons. Collorary A is that you put helmets on these kids and you make it virgin cave and it becomes the sort of story that would feature in the next big exploration report. Collorary B is that I have found that most cavers have as stupid if not stupider stories about things they've done, and done wrong. Caving can be mercifully forgiving at times.

That these kids did something very ill prepared and ill conceived should not detract from the fact that they successfully navigated a very psychologically challenging cave. Rather than profess moral superiority, we should be actively seeking out people like these as the raw talent for the next generation of great cavers. It should be made clear that the failures of one trip do not need to be repeated for every trip and that we have all committed serious blunders. If I were running a grotto in and around the Austin area, this is exactly the sort of person I would be looking for to include in my grotto. We've all been sitting here analyzing the story. Has anyone bothered to try and contact him? Or was that whole other thread about not having enough new cavers just something to read about and forget??

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Postby Wayne Harrison » May 1, 2006 4:27 pm

When I lived in Texas I visited Airman's Cave several times, although I didn't know that was its name. I called it Salamander Cave because I found a salamander in it. It's not your typical cave, in that most passages weren't large enough to stand up in. It's a lot of crawling, as I remember. I don't remember many side passages, either. I didn't have a map and we made it quite a ways back. I do remember the Aggy Art Gallery as there were a number pornographic clay models.

The "four hours to reach the surface" is a little misleading, as the cave is pretty much horizontal (between two planes of harder rock -- sorry, I'm not a geologist). You crawl straight into a cliff and crawl straight out (horizontally). I did this when 25 years ago I was younger. I'm not sure I could crawl that far now.

I had two thoughts about the article: very well written and it documented breaking several cardinal rules of caving -- a bad combination.
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Postby NZcaver » May 1, 2006 5:49 pm

Like hewhocaves, my jaw was dropping as I read the story too. Boy they were lucky! :shocked:

That chain of events had so much potential for something to go really wrong. "Greg" with all the gear and obviously some knowledge, should have known better than to lead a group as ill-prepared as this. They had great enthusiasm, though! I hope they turn up in the caving community some time - but perhaps a little wiser and better equipped. :big grin:

Wayne Harrison wrote:...I had two thoughts about the article: very well written and it documented breaking several cardinal rules of caving -- a bad combination...

I actually think this is a good combination - assuming the reader picks up a moral in the story. Like "caving is great fun, but can easily turn really bad if you're not properly prepared". Or something like that... :wink:


>>> By the way, love the new avatar Wayne. I managed to catch that Southpark episode last week, thanks to your post on the forum. :cool:

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Postby Dustin » May 1, 2006 5:55 pm

Teresa wrote:Not sure why Dustin is freaked about this. I've voluntarily stayed behind in a number of one-entrance one-passage caves. Hey, they gotta pick you up on the way out, anyway... Better that he stayed and rested, than was pushed and turned into a cave rescue.


I don't believe in leaving someone behind in a cave by themselves. If another volunteers to stay with them, I'm not bothered as much. I do not believe in forcing them to continue on. Plus, this individual had to wait another seven to eight hours until the rest of his group returned. That seems like a long time to leave someone alone.
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Postby NZcaver » May 1, 2006 7:37 pm

It's unclear whether the same people were involved, but that website also has a story on exploring the utility tunnels under the University of Texas in Austin.

http://www.betterthanyourboyfriend.com/ ... der-ut.htm

Fun! Although not exactly legal. :shock:

It really makes me laugh that the guy was mad at the TV station for using his photos without permission. :roll: Sure, it's copyright violation - but threatening to sue them because you're dumb enough to post a story and photos of you engaged in illegal trespass... Well, duh! :laughing:

Must have been a reeeeeeal slow news day! :big grin:
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Postby barcelonacvr » May 1, 2006 8:18 pm

I posted the article beacuse I was concerned at what appears to be not enough covering for neophytes not knowing better...rather blatantly .I do think the article is very well written and it keeps the readers interest very well indeed!!

I certainly don't want to discourage the neophytes as they have IMHO spectacular enthusiasm.I hope by posting this some of the great cavers down near them can reach out and enrich their learning curve.If only we had more young budding cavers like them!! A little knowledge and mentoring/tempering could produce some excellent cavers for the next generation!

I do hate that this may cast a poor light on the leader but it seemed far too blatant to not point out..I will however not say I have not done some unwise things in the past myself .It is human to err...hopefully we all can reduce those scenarios to a minimum though.


I have enjoyed some of the excellent posts on this as usual..such a great asset this forum!
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